this thread isn't about whether capacitors make a difference to the sound (it does) but whether break-in has an effect and how to achieve that break-in if there is an effect. i've never heard a difference in my paper-in-oils after breaking in, but the tube amp does sound different after warming up. i don't know if there would be any measurable difference, and if there is a measurable difference, it may or may not be audible.
yes we wouldn't want any of those dull sounding synthesized white noises, pure unadulterated AM broadcast band white noise is the only thing that will do!!
a-la-naturale!
Horse turnips! Spoken like a true Peter Aczel clone. Argue all you want but I was there and know what went down. When I had to turn the playback EQ adjustment all the way down to make the standard tape play within limits I suppose I was imagining this. I don't think so.
A capacitor is a capacitor in name only. The human ear is insensitive to harmonic distortion below about two percent. So unless you are telling me that capacitors of different dielectrics will change signals that much, HD has nothing to do with it. And if they really do, then you've made my point for me.
Without braging I must say that I have decades of hands on practical experience in the service industry for both consumer electronics (TV, audio etc) and commercial electronics (test equipment, HV supplies and microwave communication components). I have come to learn that things are not always so cut and dried as we would think them to be. Different styles of capacitors in audio circuits can make a difference in what you hear. This is especially true in frequency sensitive circuits like equalization. Sometimes it's subtle, other times it's greater. And remember, I changed them all. (same values of course)
Perhaps this is something you will have to experience on your own. Find a vintage amplifier that is working good and has all paper coupling and bypass capacitors. Listen to it and become familiar with its sound. Then upgrade every capacitor with modern fast dielectric caps, of the same value, and listen again. Forget the pointy headed measurments and open up your ears. You'll hear it unless you're deaf.
i also have a preference for polypropylene caps....
Not really.
All of the caps I've tried sounded different. More or less detailed, more or less 3D, darker/brighter, natural/distorted sounding... Some were plain boring, some were excellent.
BUT if you expect to hear such differences, make sure you have a competently designed amp, good sounding tubes and excellent speakers/phones. A bad ampifier will just sound bad, no matter what caps you use.
There are also differences in hearing accuracy: some people can't tell the difference between two musical notes, and even less between caps/tubes/etc. That's a fact.
I believe that the "breaking-in" scenario is a psychological assimilation to the the effects that certain capacitor types may or may not impart to the audio signal. Do we necessarily want this? Some do, some don't. The amplifier or preamplifier should not impart an "effect" unless of course what you are looking for is an effects box. The signal chain should remain transparent.
I guess the real question may be: How do we know that the signal chain is transparent? Through ideal measurements with ideal test equipment I suppose, which are beyond the means of most.
At the end of the day though, does it sound good to you? (meaning the proverbial you of course) If so, then so be it.
At the end of the day though, does it sound good to you? (meaning the proverbial you of course) If so, then so be it.
Hold on, you two! It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping!
For most plastic dielectrics (polypropylene, polystyrene, PTFE...), the "break-in" stuff is pure audiophile fantasy. BUT... paper is a different story. Paper is a terrible dielectric for audio applications; it has huge amounts of chemical contaminants and is extremely hygroscopic (it's the Quicker Picker Upper). The oil is supposed to reduce the latter, but only does so to a limited extent. As equipment warms and the cap warms, it loses some of that water and measurably improves in characteristics. It's not really signal that does anything, it's the heat. Maybe it can be heard, maybe not, but the phenomenon is plausible without invoking magic.
For most plastic dielectrics (polypropylene, polystyrene, PTFE...), the "break-in" stuff is pure audiophile fantasy. BUT... paper is a different story. Paper is a terrible dielectric for audio applications; it has huge amounts of chemical contaminants and is extremely hygroscopic (it's the Quicker Picker Upper). The oil is supposed to reduce the latter, but only does so to a limited extent. As equipment warms and the cap warms, it loses some of that water and measurably improves in characteristics. It's not really signal that does anything, it's the heat. Maybe it can be heard, maybe not, but the phenomenon is plausible without invoking magic.
There are sound physical reasons for tubes and speakers perhaps needing some break-in.Tubehead Johnny said:
Any effect due to capacitors is only going to be noticeable in places where they have signal voltage across them. Essentially that means the LF rolloff setter, and any equalisation or tone control caps. Everywhere else they should have a sufficiently large value that only insignificant signal gets developed across them: no signal = no distortion.HollowState said:
I suspect that some of the changes in sound which people report after changing caps is due to a change in stray capacitance to ground or nearby circuit nodes. 'Audiophile' caps tend to be large so will have larger strays. This can increase hum pickup, encourage instability (especially near phase splitters) as well as simply add an HF load to possibly high impedance points.
These days paper caps tend to be expensive too. That is two reasons why I suppose we should not be too surprised that it is popular in certain audio circles.SY said:
I envy you guys (sort of). You can use any cap and call it good. I had to spend time and money to find very good sounding ones, because I can clearly hear the diferences.
I have noticed that a cap keeps its sonic "signature" in different circuits, and the more expensive ones *usually* sound better.
I think the differences come from the manufacturing process (tolerances, winding tension, geometry, inductive or not, etc.), material quality and purity (a copper foil doesn't sound like an aluminum metalized film) and the dielectric itself, of course...
I have noticed that a cap keeps its sonic "signature" in different circuits, and the more expensive ones *usually* sound better.
I think the differences come from the manufacturing process (tolerances, winding tension, geometry, inductive or not, etc.), material quality and purity (a copper foil doesn't sound like an aluminum metalized film) and the dielectric itself, of course...
Some of the PIOs, especially the wax ones, have quite a nice smell...as long as we're using all our senses here...
I have spaces for 2 sets of coupling caps in my Aikido and there are clearly audible differences between SOME caps, others not so much.
I tried a cheap Solen MKP vs RelCap PCUs and the difference is not subtle.
I think it's also interesting with all the talk of "magic". I suppose magic is the answer for everything we don't clearly understand? What did Clark say? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." While a healthy dose of skepticism is desirable, so is an open mind.
I tried a cheap Solen MKP vs RelCap PCUs and the difference is not subtle.
I think it's also interesting with all the talk of "magic". I suppose magic is the answer for everything we don't clearly understand? What did Clark say? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." While a healthy dose of skepticism is desirable, so is an open mind.
I envy you guys (sort of). You can use any cap and call it good. I had to spend time and money to find very good sounding ones, because I can clearly hear the diferences.
I have noticed that a cap keeps its sonic "signature" in different circuits, and the more expensive ones *usually* sound better.
+1
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