Actually, I have developed a highly sophisticated proprietary break-in method specifically optimized for Russian PIO capacitors. I normally charge $1000 for this service, but for you only I will offer my services for the ultra low price of only $999.99. But hurry. This deal won't last forever. Act now and save. 
Seriously, dude. If the capacitance of the cap meets the value stamped on the part, just solder it into the circuit.
~Tom
Seriously, dude. If the capacitance of the cap meets the value stamped on the part, just solder it into the circuit.
~Tom
I'm of the opinion that there is no break-in for capacitors and other passive componets. It's all a bunch of audiophool hogwash. What really has to break in is you ear/brain system by getting used to the slightly rolled off and mellow sound of paper dielectric capacitors.
But it you insist on believing in this and wish to "break thing in", here's food for thought. Go to eBay and buy a General Radio (Gen Rad) type 1390A or B random noise generator. These old units go pretty cheap. Then hook your componets across the output at full voltage and let them set there for days. In the case of wire, like interconnects, terminate the far end with a resistor of around 1k ohm (or more) so as not to short the generator's output.
just solder 'em in and turn on the power. Any differences you hear should be short-lived as your ear adjusts to the sound.
Case in point, I once tried out some Russian Teflon caps in a pair of single-ended monoblocks. At first I thought I could tell a real difference, but as the amplifiers broke in, the effect became smaller and smaller. Psychoacoustics? "dialectric relaxation?" I dunno, but these days I advocate putting a "good" capacitor in a circuit, not blowing hundreds of dollars on passive parts.
Case in point, I once tried out some Russian Teflon caps in a pair of single-ended monoblocks. At first I thought I could tell a real difference, but as the amplifiers broke in, the effect became smaller and smaller. Psychoacoustics? "dialectric relaxation?" I dunno, but these days I advocate putting a "good" capacitor in a circuit, not blowing hundreds of dollars on passive parts.
If break-in means anything at all then whatever you do will be undone and redone by actual use in the circuit. If break-in means nothing then you don't have to do it. So in either case you don't have to do it.
Note that for almost every capacitor in a circuit, apart from the one which sets the LF rolloff, most capacitor defects (including alleged lack of break-in) will have little or no effect on the signal as the capacitor will have little signal voltage across it so it can't affect the signal.
Note that for almost every capacitor in a circuit, apart from the one which sets the LF rolloff, most capacitor defects (including alleged lack of break-in) will have little or no effect on the signal as the capacitor will have little signal voltage across it so it can't affect the signal.
Hi there
Buy a second hand reciever on ebay, do not connect an antenna to the tuner to obtain noise and roll on the volume when there is a speaker in place. Check the level, replace speaker with the cap in series with a 100R 10W resistor. Let it cook for a while ..
grz, //WDC
MONOLITH MAGNETICS
Buy a second hand reciever on ebay, do not connect an antenna to the tuner to obtain noise and roll on the volume when there is a speaker in place. Check the level, replace speaker with the cap in series with a 100R 10W resistor. Let it cook for a while ..
grz, //WDC
MONOLITH MAGNETICS
In your case, my money is on psychoacoustics.
Dielectric absorption (I'm assuming that's what you are referring to) is a real effect that can be quantified, measured, and verified through a simple experiment. Charge the capacitor to a specified voltage. Discharge it to 0V. Remove the discharging current and measure the voltage across the capacitor. The voltage will start off at 0 V and increase slightly. This slight increase in voltage versus the voltage the capacitor was changed to is a measurement of the dielectric absorption of the capacitor. Whether it has an effect on the sound quality of an amp or not, I don't know. I highly doubt it as the time scale for the voltage build-up is actually fairly long (seconds).
~Tom
My view given the cost of the big teflon caps designing for more direct connection multi-level power supplies that use the least cap in the signal path make good sense . It the historic pasts power supplies cost a lot and coupling caps where cheap reducing the number voltages and how well regulated they where . Now coupling caps can go 100s of dollars each and a well regulated power supply is far less to build.
Believe it, it does. It's not necessarily the absorption, but the speed with which it gives up it's energy. Plastic dielectrics are faster then paper in this regard. How do I know this? After reading an old artical in Audio Magazine by Walter Jung years ago called "Picking Capacitors", I replaced all the paper capacitors in my Ampex 351 clone electronics. Wow, what a surprise. The high frequency response was very exaggerated and peaked. In fact I had to readjust the equalization on both playback and record by a lot. Right to the end of the adjustment range in fact. Now this was capacitor replacement over multiple stages. Replacing one or maybe even two might not be that radical. But you will hear a difference if you listen carefully to an amplifier that has been "upgraded" with them. I'm not a golden ear, so if I can hear a change there really is a difference.
so then what happens to the cap?, any measurements taken before and after the so called break-in?
comments like "i heard a difference" mean nothing to me, i wasn't there to hear what was heard to matter.......i do not take anecdotes as evidence.....
Did you measure this change?
I'm not trying to argue that capacitors don't color the sound. But I firmly believe that capacitor break-in is a hoax along the same lines as myrtlewood speaker stands. For capacitor selection, pick a type that as close to an idea capacitor (i.e. no ESR, no ESL, just capacitance) in the frequency range of interest. My favorite is polypropylene. Polyprop caps come close to the ideal cap in most cases.
~Tom
No I did not because it was very audioable and I knew something was way off. And I don't believe in passsive parts break in either. Although I do believe that any given amplifier does sound better when fully warmed up. I also like polypropylene capacitors along with polycarbonate and teflons. I build with them. But I don't go replacing everything with them when working on vintage equipment because you will change the sonic character of the device. And this is especially true with music instrument amplifiers. More then once I've restored a guitar amp back to normal because someone upgraded it with "better sounding" parts.
Well with NOS / Older electrolytics, especially high voltage ones, it is good practice to install them in-circuit and slowly bring up the voltage with a variac to allow for reforming to occur gradually, and to avoid dielectric punch through from surge/ripple currents.
If the PIO is high voltage, the same logic could be applied if you want it to, even though it is non-polarised. Certainly wouldn't hurt.
Regards,
6J6.
If the PIO is high voltage, the same logic could be applied if you want it to, even though it is non-polarised. Certainly wouldn't hurt.
Regards,
6J6.
I would argue that unless you have measurements that show the peaking of the HF response you describe, the root cause of the change in perceived sound could be anything. Including time of day, listener fatigue, "I did something so it must sound different" psychoacoustic effect, etc.
A capacitor is a capacitor. A 1 uF electrolytic cap will cause the same frequency response as a 1 uF polypropylene. But they cause different harmonic distortion, hence, different sound.
For all the tube amps I have built, the THD while fully warmed up has been significantly lower than it was when the amp was first turned on. In many cases, I've seen upward of 10 dB improvement from cold to warm.
Sand amps shouldn't change characteristics as they warm up, however. I would consider it a design flaw if warm-up in excess of 10~15 seconds was needed for good performance.
~Tom
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.