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Old 6th December 2012, 07:50 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofaspud View Post
Possibilities.
Discovery comes exploring and verifying possibilities...

Otherwise we're not talinkg about science but philosophy, IMHO.
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Old 6th December 2012, 07:56 PM   #62
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HERE'S ELECTROSTRICTION
I love it. Reminds me of my youth, only this guy is worse.
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Old 6th December 2012, 07:56 PM   #63
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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the video is a demonstration of Eddy/Induced Current repulsion - Magneforming is a known industrial process - the caps are only used for energy storage - their possible electrostrictive properties have nothing to do with the can being squashed by the magnetic forces

Last edited by jcx; 6th December 2012 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:05 PM   #64
tomchr is offline tomchr  United States
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So.... Assuming break-in of passive components is real. Then it would follow that a component would be at peak sonic purity after the break-in period. Right?

Component aging is real. It is easily quantified and measured provided one has access to a few pieces of measurement gear. Aging starts when the component drops off the manufacturing line and ends when the component fails. It is accelerated by various things, temperature probably being the main factor.

Clearly, break-in and aging work against each other. So my question is, how long is the window of optimal sonic purity?

~Tom
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:06 PM   #65
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Let us not forget that the burden of proof rests with those who claim clearly audible, yet unexplained by science, effects. This should begin with two steps:
1. establish that there actually is an audible effect - this requires somewhat more than (sighted) anecdotes.
2. do back-of-envelope calculations to show what order of magnitude of effect might be needed (e.g. capacitor film conductance change, dielectric non-linearity, mechanical flexing) and then do more calculations to explain why these have never been seen.

Simple bleating on about 'unknown unknowns' (in audio electronics, folks, we are not talking about rocket science) is not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaveFremen
But if the molecular structure of metals (and their phisical beahviour) can be altered by heat/freezing/electrity how can we say such alteration has no effects on signal passing through that metal without a well designed experiment/measure?
OK, if you understand conduction in metals then please propose a mechanism by which feeding a small signal to a capacitor will modify the metal properties so greatly (yet so invisibly to conventional science) that a coupling cap behaves differently. If you don't understand conduction in metals then on what basis do you question the conclusions of those who do? (Hint: you need to modify the crystal structure, such as changing dislocations, or change the phonon spectrum to alter conductivity but even then the metal would still be a linear conductor. To make the metal non-linear would be much harder, as you would need to change its band structure to make it partly a semiconductor. Good luck!).
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:29 PM   #66
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Let us not forget that the burden of proof rests with those who claim clearly audible, yet unexplained by science, effects.
Sorry, no. The burden of proof rest also with skepticals...

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(Hint: you need to modify the crystal structure, such as changing dislocations, or change the phonon spectrum to alter conductivity but even then the metal would still be a linear conductor. To make the metal non-linear would be much harder, as you would need to change its band structure to make it partly a semiconductor. Good luck!).
I don't have the knowledge to do so, I've only the empyrical experience.

It seem that you have the knowledge, then change your point of view and postulate molecular changes due to heating/freezing/electricity have an influence on signals passing through, how it can be?

Maybe you can make an hypothesis for us.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:37 PM   #67
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Why should I attempt to invent an explanation for a metal effect which has never been seen, probably does not exist, and would require a complete revision of the stuff I learnt nearly 40 years ago? Science has a big problem: it is constrained by facts. Those who question science do not feel similarly constrained.

Perhaps I should ask you to explain why claims of capacitor break-in are almost certainly wrong?
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:11 PM   #68
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Why should I attempt to invent an explanation for a metal effect which has never been seen, probably does not exist, and would require a complete revision of the stuff I learnt nearly 40 years ago?
I wasn't suggesting you to invent anything but simply to try a diffrent POV, just to avoid bias...

Obviously you state what you state because you measured, tested and verified it, isn't it?

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Science has a big problem: it is constrained by facts. Those who question science do not feel similarly constrained.
I wasn't questioning science but dogmas.

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Perhaps I should ask you to explain why claims of capacitor break-in are almost certainly wrong?
How can I? I don't have the knowledge nor the needed measurement tools....

But I have my empirical experience which suggests the contrary, if every time I taste winegar I feel it sour, like most others, I don't need to prove it, it's still sour...

It's the scientist task to tell me why I feel it sour... and the answer it's not that I'm fooling myself.

I will not convince you and viceversa, I think we can live happily with it
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:24 PM   #69
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The problem I have with much of the audio folklore and snake oil (snakelore?) is that most of it is presented as eyewitness accounts by individuals. Usually the individuals who claim results are the same individuals who modified the circuit or they make money from selling what they claim caused the improvement in sound quality. In most cases the individual who claims results is aware that the circuit has been modified and in which way it has been modified. If they just blew $200 on AudioPhool Capacitors they will perceive an improvement in sound quality. I know I would...

A blind test is not that hard to set up if you get a friend involved. A double-blind test would be harder. And, let's face it. Most of us would rather listen to music than get involved in a scientifically valid double-blind test.

For me, personally, I have an easier time believing the eyewitness accounts if they are backed up by measurements.

~Tom
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Last edited by tomchr; 6th December 2012 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:26 PM   #70
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this thread should be merged with the blowtorch thread i think....
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