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Old 10th December 2012, 01:04 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Thanks for the link to tomchr's site. It led me to getting the complete manuals for my HP3563, which did not come with the unit.
I seriously doubt that you will be able to measure 'break-in' with any available test equipment. It is just too limited, even though the ear seems to detect it.
While I agree there is no money in the test that leaves it to the hobby with people who do this not for money. Maybe some thing along the line of intermodular distortion . John C remember the bumblebee work the phd where fired for saying it impossible ! I not asking you to devote large resources to this but no one is coming forth with any type of trials or methodology to prove or disprove break-in effects the passive. One last point every piece of machinery I have ever used electronic, car, truck, etc has changed after a break-in period . Given that how is it possible that singularly in the universe as we know it that capacitors do not change after a break-in period ?
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Old 10th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #202
SY is offline SY  United States
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Machinery and passive electronic components are two different things. Not a good analogy. There's nothing to "wear" or change dimension/flexibility in plastic film capacitors (except possibly Mylar as I noted above).

The money quote is John Curl admitting that there's nothing there capable of measurement. Combine it with the total lack of evidence of audibility and you can provisionally assume that it's all audiophile legend.

Don't let the fact that your bumblebee story is untrue stop you from believing it, though.
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Old 10th December 2012, 01:44 PM   #203
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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I wasn't going to comment however

Post 13 in polk audio,

PDF...

Capacitor break-in

SD ansar information..ref voltage proofing

Ansar Capacitors Technical Information from suppression-devices.com

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Old 10th December 2012, 01:49 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by radiotron View Post
the next step is to define the apparatus required to duplicate audible results with scientific results, I'm interested to know how this could be done.
Can be done in couple ways.
1. Listening test, new vs. broken-in caps.
2. Measure the sound, before & after.

We are not saying that there is sound we can hear but not measurable with modern device, are we?
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Old 10th December 2012, 01:52 PM   #205
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Gregg View Post

Post 13 in polk audio,

PDF...

Capacitor break-in
Breathtaking.
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Old 10th December 2012, 01:58 PM   #206
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Of course we are. Test equipment has a limited range and function, at least for analyzers that cost up to $30,000. Perhaps there is a $100,000 or million dollar piece of equipment in some lab somewhere that could measure something interesting, even about cap 'break-in' but we lowly audio people don't have easy access to it.
I once referenced some electron microscope studies that showed what happens to a metal when just sitting around, and on a micro scale, it was profound. However, the same critics dismissed the research entirely, at the time.
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Old 10th December 2012, 02:00 PM   #207
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
Breathtaking.
LMAO...

Well it has some info..
Someone tried to do something...

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Old 10th December 2012, 02:05 PM   #208
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Sy,

As you are aware I'm firmly in the "if I hear it I believe I hear it" camp . But the possibility of some sort of scientific testing and proofing is intriguing - whether the results confirm or disprove claims of audible differences as the result of "break-in". I've sent out several emails to some significant companies requesting information on methods, equipment and practicality of such a quest. I'll report if and/or when I get replies.

I do however, want to ask you a very simple straight forward question. Have you never experienced a change/improvement/difference in the output of a piece of audio equipment from first power-up - and performance over time? It appears that is what you are stating - but I well might be misinterpreting your comments.

Again, this is not intended to be a gottcha or a desire to be petty - just an honest question.
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Old 10th December 2012, 02:10 PM   #209
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Sure I have- but for completely rational reasons (like hitting operating points, driving out moisture, mechanical break-in in transducers). In all cases, the phenomena are easy to measure, as is the case for ANYTHING that's been demonstrated to be audible.

If someone does a controlled listening test between "new" and "broken in" capacitors and can find a difference, that's evidence, and then worth spending technical effort. To date, only hand-waving and anecdote.
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Old 10th December 2012, 02:13 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Perhaps there is a $100,000 or million dollar piece of equipment in some lab somewhere that could measure something interesting, even about cap 'break-in' but we lowly audio people don't have easy access to it.
You can build a switch-box with parts on hand and do an ears-only test. There. I saved you a million bucks.
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