
Home  Forums  Rules  Articles  The diyAudio Store  Gallery  Blogs  Register  Donations  FAQ  Calendar  Search  Today's Posts  Mark Forums Read  Search 
Tubes / Valves All about our sweet vacuum tubes :) Threads about Musical Instrument Amps of all kinds should be in the Instruments & Amps forum 

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.
Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving 

Thread Tools  Search this Thread 
14th September 2012, 03:55 PM  #1 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hungary

Determining the core cross sectional area, Afe, for SE OPT
Hi!
How to calculate the minimum required core cross sectional area, Afe, for a SE OPT? I know some formulas, but all are different and gives also different results. e.g.:  Afe (in sq.mm) = 450 x sqrt Po  Afe = 2*sqrt Power  Afe = 20* sqrt (Power/Fd) fd is the lowest frequency  Afe = 20* Power/Fd  Afe = sqrt (power*20)  Afe = (sqrt Power)*2 etc. Is there any reliable formula? Greets: Tyimo 
16th September 2012, 10:05 PM  #2 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2007

Hi
I don't know of any "all in one", simple formula that always works. I've used the  Afe (in sq.mm) = 450 x sqrt Po  as starting point and it comes close. However this is a starting point, then you have to calculate your windings and your air gap. It might turn out that you cannot reach your desired primary inductance whitout risking saturation. Then you have to go with bigger Afe...and so on it is an iterative process. /Olof
__________________
I'm not allowed to do magic, union rules... 
17th September 2012, 07:43 AM  #3  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hungary

Hi Olof!
Thanks! Quote:
Greets: Tyimo 

17th September 2012, 08:03 AM  #4 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ardeche

A reliable formula (if it exists) should include not only Pmax and lowest frequency but also the DC current and the maximum induction the core can accept for a given distortion.
Geometry of the core has a role to play allowing more or less room for more or less copper . . . Also, the need for interleaving consumes some of this room for insulation layers. Interactions are complex and I second Olof about using an iterative process. Yves. 
17th September 2012, 03:57 PM  #5 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Hickory, NC

A properly gapped SE core loses half of its core area to the DC flux. So for 2X the area to compensate, this would require 1.414 X the side length, and that would make for (1.414)^3 = 2.828 the volume. The usual power estimation formulas are for power transformers at 60/50 Hz operating to Bmax, so you have to figure in another 3X area for say 20 Hz. Then for E/I laminations, quality audio usage is more like 60% of the Bmax (as used by the power case), so another 1.666 X area (to stay in linear flux region). Then SE pushes into saturation even faster than PP, since it operates on one side (flux polarity) only (ie, it already starts out at 1/2 Bmax for zero signal) so some more adjustment is needed. (actually a lot would be needed to reach full PP equivalent core linearity, see bottom) Typically, the SE xfmr will weigh around 3X to 4X the equivalent PP case for a "quality" design, requiring around a 1.44 to 1.6 X larger side dimension (cube root of 3 or 4).
But if you really wanted to get totally equivalent core flux linearity to the PP case, it would take more like a 10X volume (for E/I, a cut core could redeem most of that due to it's higher linear flux level). Obviously this doesn't get done though, since the air gap linearizes the flux curve considerably.
__________________
Without MS, how would we live without all those hackers? Last edited by smokingamp; 17th September 2012 at 04:26 PM. 
17th September 2012, 04:34 PM  #6 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Hickory, NC

Then you have to consider the winding inductance too. The air gap will typically reduce that by 1/4, the (minimum) doubled core area brings that up by 2, but the core material Mu is lowered around 1/2 due to the DC. Net result is that the 3X to 4X heavier core is still inductance challenged with a limited bottom end and higher winding resistance with more turns around the bigger core (poor damping factor, but then zero feedback is still the main problem there).
__________________
Without MS, how would we live without all those hackers? Last edited by smokingamp; 17th September 2012 at 04:48 PM. 
17th September 2012, 04:49 PM  #7 
diyAudio Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto

I'd be interested in trying to design an example output transformer here, look up formulas and so on. What are the specs you want from your transformer?

17th September 2012, 07:12 PM  #8 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hungary

O.K. I understand.
Thanks for everybody! Greets: Tyimo 
17th September 2012, 07:14 PM  #9  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hungary

Hi Ikoflexer!
Quote:
Greets: Tyimo 

17th September 2012, 07:21 PM  #10 
diyAudio Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto

You, or anyone else. But you probably have a vested interest, being the original poster.

Thread Tools  Search this Thread 


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
cross sectional area shapes  gafhenderson  Full Range  5  3rd April 2012 05:23 AM 
Transmission line crosssectional area question  h@kan  Full Range  11  26th October 2009 12:18 PM 
Is this a C core OPT?  planet10  Tubes / Valves  8  23rd October 2002 01:25 AM 
Winding toroids, turns vs core area  johan  Parts  2  28th September 2001 09:44 AM 
New To Site?  Need Help? 