It is exactly what I mean. Copies of what had been invented in the last century can be cheap. But they can't compete with a tube amplifier designed today. Requirements are different. Available technologies are different. Today better power supplies are available much cheaper than then, they would cost a fortune in parts then. Dynamic load of tubes for minimum distortions. Read this forum carefully, lots of new stuff had been discussed here at least in last 5 years that you can't find in amps designed in the last century. And so on.
Hi!
For a commercial product which is sold through the ususal channels, which in this case probably is: manufacturer -> importer -> dealer -> end customer, a ratio of 1:10 between the mere cost of parts and the end price is not uncommon Often even up to 1:20. Even if the circuit itself does not need to be developed, PCBs need to be laid out and tested. The chassis needs to be designed. Prototypes have to be built and the thing needs to be made producable in the intended quantities. Logistics of all part sourcing needs to be managed. The preamp needs to be assembled, tested, packed, shipped. QC needs to be set up. Marketing to be done. Everybody invloved wants to get something for his work in the end.
I don't know this preamp, never heard it and don't want to comment on tube choice or beauty of the chassis layout, but the pricing seems sensible.
Best regards
Thomas
For a commercial product which is sold through the ususal channels, which in this case probably is: manufacturer -> importer -> dealer -> end customer, a ratio of 1:10 between the mere cost of parts and the end price is not uncommon Often even up to 1:20. Even if the circuit itself does not need to be developed, PCBs need to be laid out and tested. The chassis needs to be designed. Prototypes have to be built and the thing needs to be made producable in the intended quantities. Logistics of all part sourcing needs to be managed. The preamp needs to be assembled, tested, packed, shipped. QC needs to be set up. Marketing to be done. Everybody invloved wants to get something for his work in the end.
I don't know this preamp, never heard it and don't want to comment on tube choice or beauty of the chassis layout, but the pricing seems sensible.
Best regards
Thomas
Sure , but without going into extensive arguments the nastiest systems I heard were DIY ones using all "the best parts" and "best sounding valves" not to mention a conviction that if it doesn't hum and buzz it can't possibly sound "real and alive "
Of course; no valve however good can make up for poor design and construction.
Equally there is no point in using inferior component parts - especially these days when excellent test and research data are available.
7N7
Audio Valve makes another preamp called "Conductor". That one does sell for $16,000.00 in the US. 2 x 6922 and 2 x 6N6P per channel, similar looks, two boxes. I'm not sure it matters. How about Gucci bags, Prada somethings, Louboutin shoes? The money is in the perception and all the business aspects that Wavebourn and Thomas Mayer talked about.
These kind of so-called hi-end products using guitar tubes like 12AU7 are responsible for all those poor souls who fill DIY Asylum Tubes with posts like "Most musical 12AU7?", "Are long plates more euphonic?", "Please identify this windmill getter 12AU7?", "French 12AU7s - should I buy them", "$16,000 for a pair of 12AU7 on epay????!!!???"< "Were all Mullard 12AU7s made in Mitcham?".....
A lost generation.......
A lost generation.......
As requested, cost of this thing reduced. So, grab yourselves a veritable bargain everyone!!!
FTR, I work in product design resulting in the manufacturing of electronic products. Some sell 5K p.a., some sell 250K p.a.
One of my designs (a vertical mast lift control system) took me (+ team of 5) 18 months to design, program, test, document and accredit. We even have our own on-site EMC chamber. This particular system sells for less than <$1/2K, has a cast aluminum base plate, tooled plastic injection cover and a 4 layer, 4oz copper PCB the size of a piece of A4 (to support THP and SMT to 0603 all at 10 thou track & gap). The $450 covers design, tooling, testing, manufacture AND delivery to the customer.
Now, comparing these expensive audio products to designer handbags / sunglasses / shoes DOES start to make more sense to me, so TY to whoever opened my eyes to that!
A
FTR, I work in product design resulting in the manufacturing of electronic products. Some sell 5K p.a., some sell 250K p.a.
One of my designs (a vertical mast lift control system) took me (+ team of 5) 18 months to design, program, test, document and accredit. We even have our own on-site EMC chamber. This particular system sells for less than <$1/2K, has a cast aluminum base plate, tooled plastic injection cover and a 4 layer, 4oz copper PCB the size of a piece of A4 (to support THP and SMT to 0603 all at 10 thou track & gap). The $450 covers design, tooling, testing, manufacture AND delivery to the customer.
Now, comparing these expensive audio products to designer handbags / sunglasses / shoes DOES start to make more sense to me, so TY to whoever opened my eyes to that!
A
Sure , you forgot to add that all of that is manufactured by British skilled work force payed living wage and sold in boutiques.
Andy ,12ax7, 12au7 and the rest of family are fine sounding tubes like NE5534 is a fine sounding opamp
$4700 is not high-end anymore but rather an entry point to it . I think in the whole equation the tube used is of little importance. It should be available.
I think in the whole equation the tube used is of little importance...>>
I wouldn't agree with that at all. I only use DHTs because they sound better right through the amplification chain, not just as a 45/2a3/300b output tube. In fact they're even more important in the first stages than in the output. You're not going to get these tubes in commercial designs (with one or two exceptions) so the argument is theoretical. But for the constructor it's important because we do have choices, so it's a point of view worth defending.
Andy
I wouldn't agree with that at all. I only use DHTs because they sound better right through the amplification chain, not just as a 45/2a3/300b output tube. In fact they're even more important in the first stages than in the output. You're not going to get these tubes in commercial designs (with one or two exceptions) so the argument is theoretical. But for the constructor it's important because we do have choices, so it's a point of view worth defending.
Andy
Well, I agree the Ongaku is a work of alectronic art made by top class expert engineers, and are priced according maybe in excess of $80K or more.
A huge work for nothing, a pity there is no more USA NOS 211 tubes to use on it, the owner is forced to use chinese 211 that are cheap, sound so so and are unreliable!!
Kondo Japan could do a Ongaku GM70 version, a more reliable tube ready avaliable.
Well, if the Psvanes don't float your boat, there are 211's from KR Tubes and Sophia Electric for approx. 700 EUR/pair, and there may be other options for the discerning owner.
jeff
An Audio Valve Eclipse (Eklipse) preamplifier:
...That's right boys & girls, $4,500!
Now, I can probably see where $1,000 would get spent making such a thing, but for the outstanding $3,500.... someone please help me here!
Andy
Nice, sober, inputs and outputs handled by relays, Siemens/Epcos MKPs, 12AU7/ECC82.
Here something similar, I sell at $ 1000.
The Germans can afford.
Viva 12AU7/ECC82 !
There are still plenty of NOS American 211 and VT-4C if you know where to look and are willing to pay to play. Not likely much of an issue for anyone who can afford to buy one of these amps, even used ones go for pretty big money, and don't believe for a moment that anyone who purchased one of these amps paid list price..
Sadly Kondo San died a few years back so he isn't making those lovely silver foil caps in this world any longer..
The entire amp was a work of art, you should see the inside of a Kondo product to appreciate the care that went into the design and construction of these things.. Superlative..
Hard to believe this, these tubes may be fake NOS from Shuguang.
Shindo had a GM70 amp for around $17K, a competidor from Kondo would be good to the custumers.
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