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Old 3rd May 2012, 11:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aptquark View Post
I use to think that way...but Im a purist. I am perectly happy with no tone controls on all of my equipment. I had a Mac pre that had them..and didnt like how the sound was altered. Though, they didnt call them tone controls on the Mac...they had some other way of describing what the controls did.
Was that boost/cut or coloration ??
I am yet to hear one without tone control, but as you say and has been said ( I am aware of also), the signal path through all theses differing types of tone control components can interfere with the original sound.
But even just to be able to "back the bass off a tad" "a little twitch of the treble" or vice versa to get a believable sound. On tracks where the bass guitar snarls, guitar growls, crisp percussion etc etc ...
On some CD's records, a sweet spot can definately be found, but on other CD' & records etc I am constantly "on the tweak" for what sounded great on one track will have the spkr cones almost bursting out of the box.
I'm OK with that as I am very aware of this so I am never far from the system. When I have it cranked I turn it down at the end of each song in anticipation of the next track so as to avert any damage that could arise. Now this may sound like lunacy to some (when I say cranked, I don't mean Vol on 10,that'll never happen here, 4 is getting loud,6 is pumping )
but this is how I like it. If something blows ( not so far ) it's back on the bench for some TLC. And I do care about them a lot. On a hot day I am a little loathe to use them at all.
Cheers,
Andrew.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 12:25 PM   #12
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[QUOTE=doozerdave;3010196]The first few replies sum it up pretty fairly I'd say. Power amps don't need tone/EQ controls, period. Depending on the quality of your source and overall system linearity, you may need them in a pre-amp.

Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer on my original question as I have intergrated amps, so yes " I mean in a pre-amp " or the pre-amp section.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 12:30 PM   #13
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At this point I would like to thank you members who have taken part in this thread, all information is appreciated. Keep it up !
Regards,
Andrew.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 01:59 PM   #14
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibaldy View Post
Was that boost/cut or coloration ??
I am yet to hear one without tone control, but as you say and has been said ( I am aware of also), the signal path through all theses differing types of tone control components can interfere with the original sound.
But even just to be able to "back the bass off a tad" "a little twitch of the treble" or vice versa to get a believable sound. On tracks where the bass guitar snarls, guitar growls, crisp percussion etc etc ...
On some CD's records, a sweet spot can definately be found, but on other CD' & records etc I am constantly "on the tweak" for what sounded great on one track will have the spkr cones almost bursting out of the box.
I'm OK with that as I am very aware of this so I am never far from the system. When I have it cranked I turn it down at the end of each song in anticipation of the next track so as to avert any damage that could arise. Now this may sound like lunacy to some (when I say cranked, I don't mean Vol on 10,that'll never happen here, 4 is getting loud,6 is pumping )
but this is how I like it. If something blows ( not so far ) it's back on the bench for some TLC. And I do care about them a lot. On a hot day I am a little loathe to use them at all.
Cheers,
Andrew.
The bottom line is there is something wrong..If you have to keep tweeking!!

The system is not linear...And if you don't like the way its recorded on the disc then your probably not going to like the song played live...this is what HiFi is...trying to create the sound in the studio or venue..

Its interesting that some people don't like HiFi..I remember someone saying they could hear an annoying sound in the back ground and now they don't like the track that they have always loved..well thats HiFi..you should get what is on the disc..not anything missing...

Regards
M. Gregg
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Old 3rd May 2012, 02:11 PM   #15
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Yeah , that's right The fact is I seldom or almost never start a new thread , just participating by putting boring answers written in perfect english
but I'm elegant because I stop myself for me more boring
Indeed , you may want to know how many times in 30 years I've rotated knobs
and pushed buttons....

Decreasing ...more and more with time
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Old 3rd May 2012, 02:22 PM   #16
banat is offline banat  Serbia
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Mr. Douglas Self wrote :


-"Tone-controls cause an audible deterioration even when set to the flat position."
This is usually blamed on "phase-shift". At the time of writing, tone controls on a preamp badly damage its chances of street (or rather sitting-room) credibility, for no good reason. Tone-controls set to 'flat' cannot possibly contribute any extra phase-shift and must be inaudible. My view is that they are absolutely indispensable for correcting room acoustics, loudspeaker shortcomings, or tonal balance of the source material, and that a lot of people are suffering sub-optimal sound as a result of this fashion. It is now commonplace for audio critics to suggest that frequency-response inadequacies should be corrected by changing loudspeakers. This is an extraordinarily expensive way of avoiding tone-controls.-

I agree with him ! , nothing is wrong to use tone controls .
Douglas Self Site

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Old 3rd May 2012, 02:39 PM   #17
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I used to think I was an audio connoisseur. I used standard Yamaha or Sony integrated amps and speakers, and yes, I was constantly fiddling with the tone controls.

Then I built my first set of DIY speakers.
Then I built my first DIY tube amp, then more speakers, and more tube amps.

I don't use tone controls at all anymore. Not too long ago I dialed in one of my previous favorite presets on my laptop. Not good.

I will agree that the room has to be compensated for whether by way of treatments, EQ or a combination of both.

That's just my experience though.

Last edited by scott17; 3rd May 2012 at 02:42 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 3rd May 2012, 02:45 PM   #18
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Default You have to look at the whole system....

including the listening room. The object of equalization is to overcome deficiencies in the union of electronics-loudspeaker transducer and room acoustics BUT and this is a big BUT....for each 3db of equalization boost you are asking the last link in the electronics chain, ie the power amplifier, to produce 20% more power output to the loudspeaker. Power amplifiers can quickly run out of steam, ie torque, ie the ability to accomplish the work the preamplifier-equalizer is asking it to accomplish. It's like encountering a hill too steep for a bicycle to climb. As the power amp ceases to amplify and approaches clipping, distorion goes through the roof exponentially. So some think that is just best to let sleeping dogs lie so to speak and not worry about equalization. Ray Hughes
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Old 3rd May 2012, 04:01 PM   #19
jim1961 is offline jim1961  United States
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I think the matter breaks down several ways.

In a perfect world, you dont want to use EQ. It does produce unwanted side effects, phase, distortion, ect... But the crux of the matter is that good sound is a balancing act. The lesser of several evils if you will. How many of you had a album whereby you really liked the music, but the treble was so hot, you couldnt enjoy it? Or it was deficient in bass? And so on......In these cases, tones controls may make something listenable / enjoyable that without isnt despite EQing's unwanted side effects.

-Whats fashionable plays a part (as previously mentioned).
-It adds a bit of cost to the unit.
-Simple bass and treble dont always / usually? address the task adequately, so its assumed that someone with such needs will buy an outboard EQ to handle things, so tone controls on the receiver / pre amp become redundant.

I remember back in the 70's Marantz receivers used to get added attention because of their extra tone control in the form of a "midrange" knob. Also, the wheel instead of a knob for selecting your FM frequency. Neither of these attributes made it sound better, but I bet it sold them a few more units
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Old 4th May 2012, 05:42 PM   #20
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There is another aspect of this that people are not being perfectly honest about. The fact is, your ear is not linear across the audio frequency band at different audio power levels. In the old days, there was a 'loudness' button on many integrated amplifiers to try to correct for this at low volumes. This was of course a very crude solution, but it certainly helped.

So while it may be true that your gear is perfectly linear, your head is not.
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