It's a generation thing because of my age, tubed gear just simply was never around. (Born in 1978.)
Staying within context, SW is an even smaller niche then audiophiles these days.
The fact that one has to try so hard to get an SS to sound good tells you something.
I'm sure by now, somebody who makes SS gear must have come across someone as skilled as yourself to design amps for them. Maybe someone should point this site out to the folks at Sony, Yamaha and Onkyo because after all the years and work they still can't make an amp like you.
For all practical and intensive purposes tubes are pretty much obsolete except for audio.
I love my iPad, computer etc so SS is king when it comes to everything else.
Sure some tube amps are "lacking"- but when they are placed against the comparable SS unit, they sound better. I've restored a couple All American Five radios, they sound much better then the modern day equivalent table radio.
Staying within context, SW is an even smaller niche then audiophiles these days.
The fact that one has to try so hard to get an SS to sound good tells you something.
I'm sure by now, somebody who makes SS gear must have come across someone as skilled as yourself to design amps for them. Maybe someone should point this site out to the folks at Sony, Yamaha and Onkyo because after all the years and work they still can't make an amp like you.
For all practical and intensive purposes tubes are pretty much obsolete except for audio.
I love my iPad, computer etc so SS is king when it comes to everything else.
Sure some tube amps are "lacking"- but when they are placed against the comparable SS unit, they sound better. I've restored a couple All American Five radios, they sound much better then the modern day equivalent table radio.
Hi,
First let me tell You that I am a tube/valve addict.
This is an old debate and the causes behind the weakness of solid state and vacuum state active devices are well understood these days.
Both are far from perfection when used in linear amplifiers like ones used for audio.
Both distorts, despite in different ways, and the mathematical models are very well documented.
That said, tubes have a lot of disadvantages compared to transistors:
- Tubes are not efficient and robust enough to fight any solid state design; that is why transistors took over tubes 50 years ago;
- Tubes are big, even the nuvistor types, when compared to transistors;
- Tubes also suffer from other problems, like excessive microphony, cathode wear and poisoning, and noise from a lot of different roots inside the tube comnponents.
However, tubes can do a lot of good things as well:
- It can stand huge overloads (unlike transistors that tends to dye catastrophically);
- It can still be used (and they do) in high power RF transmitters (unlike transistors that have power limitations when compared to tubes able to deliver 100KWatt);
- On audio, tubes are much more tolerant to input overloads and it stands far more dynamic range than transistors (check AES papers Milbert Amplifiers, Most Musical Amplifiers ), and this is one of the main reasons why people like the sound of tubes over transistors; this starts at the record studios, not only at domestic level.
- The tube distortion pattern of a good Class A Single End audio amplifier design beats anything else, tube or transistor based - the distortion pattern is a second harmonic series wich is nicely accepted by humans, as the sound is everything but rough. However, this design is very inefficient (think 15%) and very limited in the output power (think 13Watt from a 211 tube in Class A1), so we really need loudspeakers with more than 100dB per Watt to get decent volume and dynamic range.
- And, if that matters at all, the russians says that tubes can survive a nuclear blast, unlike transistors... Hehe
First let me tell You that I am a tube/valve addict.
This is an old debate and the causes behind the weakness of solid state and vacuum state active devices are well understood these days.
Both are far from perfection when used in linear amplifiers like ones used for audio.
Both distorts, despite in different ways, and the mathematical models are very well documented.
That said, tubes have a lot of disadvantages compared to transistors:
- Tubes are not efficient and robust enough to fight any solid state design; that is why transistors took over tubes 50 years ago;
- Tubes are big, even the nuvistor types, when compared to transistors;
- Tubes also suffer from other problems, like excessive microphony, cathode wear and poisoning, and noise from a lot of different roots inside the tube comnponents.
However, tubes can do a lot of good things as well:
- It can stand huge overloads (unlike transistors that tends to dye catastrophically);
- It can still be used (and they do) in high power RF transmitters (unlike transistors that have power limitations when compared to tubes able to deliver 100KWatt);
- On audio, tubes are much more tolerant to input overloads and it stands far more dynamic range than transistors (check AES papers Milbert Amplifiers, Most Musical Amplifiers ), and this is one of the main reasons why people like the sound of tubes over transistors; this starts at the record studios, not only at domestic level.
- The tube distortion pattern of a good Class A Single End audio amplifier design beats anything else, tube or transistor based - the distortion pattern is a second harmonic series wich is nicely accepted by humans, as the sound is everything but rough. However, this design is very inefficient (think 15%) and very limited in the output power (think 13Watt from a 211 tube in Class A1), so we really need loudspeakers with more than 100dB per Watt to get decent volume and dynamic range.
- And, if that matters at all, the russians says that tubes can survive a nuclear blast, unlike transistors... Hehe
That wasn't the context. You said VTs are only good for audio, and they definitely are not. A good vintage VT SW receiver is as prized as a good vintage VT audio amp. Size of the respective niches wasn't mentioned, and that's a whole 'nother story.
It tells me that the technology that has no down side has yet to be invented, and probably will never exist.
I'm sure they have. However, that's not their market niche and not their business model. They're mass producing product to keep the cost down, sell widely, and make up the difference in volume. Their main customer is that guy who fills a CD changer with a half-dozen CDs and plays them while doing something else, not the one who will devote an hour or two exclusively to listening. Nothing wrong with that, either on the production end, or with the end user.
I have some SS designs that beat the living daylights out of anything Sony, Yamaha or Onkyo produced. Of course, such designs won't fit with their business model.
Still in use for RF, and especially where you need the bigwatts.
As Miles states, tubes do have certain advantages over SS. To some extent, they can be looked upon as power JFETs, - as my old professor in the early 70s said when we ventured into FET territory - "these devices work quite similar to tubes.. and then he'd draw a tube schematic instead.....
Tubes ill also take a LOT more abuse than transistors, albeit not in an audio amp without load on the output transformer.
AOT, I operate a line-up of KW level SW transmitters where antenna loads varies slightly, for several reasons. Some years ago, I got a setup of SS KW level PAs, and there's been nothing but trouble, as compared to the "old geezer" technology
If it weren't for those blasted output transformers, with it's inherent price that sends the bean counters ( and "modern engineers" ) through the roof, audio tube amps would still be around to a much larger extent than what is usual today. I do think most of the "hostility" towards tube technology among younger technicians and engineers is basically founded in a more or less total lack of knowledge, marketing hype as already stated, and the general line of thinking, that "everything and anything older than myself must surely be obsolete".......
Tubes ill also take a LOT more abuse than transistors, albeit not in an audio amp without load on the output transformer.
AOT, I operate a line-up of KW level SW transmitters where antenna loads varies slightly, for several reasons. Some years ago, I got a setup of SS KW level PAs, and there's been nothing but trouble, as compared to the "old geezer" technology
If it weren't for those blasted output transformers, with it's inherent price that sends the bean counters ( and "modern engineers" ) through the roof, audio tube amps would still be around to a much larger extent than what is usual today. I do think most of the "hostility" towards tube technology among younger technicians and engineers is basically founded in a more or less total lack of knowledge, marketing hype as already stated, and the general line of thinking, that "everything and anything older than myself must surely be obsolete".......
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The tube vs. solid-state debate used to keep me up at night. But I hardly worry about it anymore.
Case in point - after many years of doing DIY gear and whatnot, I recently tried to ditch tubes. I was sick of the expensive output tubes, the price of good OTs, etc etc. SO most of my signal chain is SS based now - I have an op-amp MC phono stage (thank you, Audio Sector), a refurbished Threshold FET-10/HL linestage, and a pair of power hungry Magnepan 1.6QRs. I happened to pick up a Threshold S/500 amplifier - 250WPC into 8ohms - for a really low, low price. With the Magnepans, I thought I had it made. No reasons to jump into the tube game again.
Well... I recently started bi-amping, using a modified Yaqin MC-10T (!!!) amplifier to just drive the tweeter panel. The addition of tubes back into my system has been the single biggest upgrade I've ever made. The combination of the big SS power for the bass, with a tube amp on top - it has a delicacy and power that I could never get with SS or tubes alone.
Case in point - after many years of doing DIY gear and whatnot, I recently tried to ditch tubes. I was sick of the expensive output tubes, the price of good OTs, etc etc. SO most of my signal chain is SS based now - I have an op-amp MC phono stage (thank you, Audio Sector), a refurbished Threshold FET-10/HL linestage, and a pair of power hungry Magnepan 1.6QRs. I happened to pick up a Threshold S/500 amplifier - 250WPC into 8ohms - for a really low, low price. With the Magnepans, I thought I had it made. No reasons to jump into the tube game again.
Well... I recently started bi-amping, using a modified Yaqin MC-10T (!!!) amplifier to just drive the tweeter panel. The addition of tubes back into my system has been the single biggest upgrade I've ever made. The combination of the big SS power for the bass, with a tube amp on top - it has a delicacy and power that I could never get with SS or tubes alone.
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