Currently I am using a set of Logitech Z-5500s, using only the front speakers and the subwoofer. This is connected to my computer running a very nice Auzentech X-Fi Prelude (basically a really nicely upgraded X-Fi card). My volume control is usually only 2.5-3/20 of the way up. My speakers are set up about 70cm away from me, in a good position on top of my desk. I mostly listen to alternative and hard rock music (Pearl Jam, Moist, Hurt, Straylight Run, Serj Tankian, Silversun Pickups, ect)
What I am looking for is to replace my Z-5500 setup with a small tube amp built from a kit, and some bookshelf sized high efficiency full range speakers.
I have been reading a lot on this site the last week and I think it's actually made me dumber than when I started, so we'll just assume I am starting at square 1 with electronics, and I definitely am with tube amps. I have the means to make my own speaker cabinets, I have a soldering iron and am very good at soldering (I grew up soldering). Speaker kits are also on the table, though most I'm seeing are 85-88/1W/1M, and I'm not sure how suitable such a thing would be with a single digit output amp.
Cost? Really, I would like to do everything for 500-600 Canadian. Of course even less would be fantastic as long as it sounds great. Any recommendations, guy?
What I am looking for is to replace my Z-5500 setup with a small tube amp built from a kit, and some bookshelf sized high efficiency full range speakers.
I have been reading a lot on this site the last week and I think it's actually made me dumber than when I started, so we'll just assume I am starting at square 1 with electronics, and I definitely am with tube amps. I have the means to make my own speaker cabinets, I have a soldering iron and am very good at soldering (I grew up soldering). Speaker kits are also on the table, though most I'm seeing are 85-88/1W/1M, and I'm not sure how suitable such a thing would be with a single digit output amp.
Cost? Really, I would like to do everything for 500-600 Canadian. Of course even less would be fantastic as long as it sounds great. Any recommendations, guy?
Welcome!
It will be hard to do for low $ with speakers & shipping taxes etc., but look at the tubelab.com site for a start.
His site is messed up, but just click on all the blue links and you will get around. George has a Form on this site. Google differences between PP and SE for differences and opinions if you don't know. Lot's of info if you look. Lot's of help too.
He sells boards for a SE called the Simple SE and a PP EL84 amp called the Simple PP. He has a parts kit for the PP for $65 and may have one done in the new year for the SE. All boards are $35 and are Stereo. You still have to buy transformers and tubes and make an enclosure or use an aluminum plate /chassis etc. You will usually need big high efficiency speakers for small SE amps.
Maybe you can scrounge for used parts or vintage amps and speakers too. Like a kit as will need rebuilding. Speakers can be refoamed. Dynaco's can be good with mods on some and affordable. There are even new clones and whole kits, but will cost you all of your $600 with shipping and taxes. Dynakit ST-35 from dynakit and diytubes version. Stock said to be the best sounding Dynacos, but not many were sold as the higher power ST-70 wasn't much more in cost for double the power. A used working ST-70 for around $350 may be a good start as there where 350K built. New kits start at $700 without tubes. There are many boards out there to upgrade it as some don,t like the stock amp. ST-35 is 17W/CH and ST-70 is 35W/CH, but speakers will be the deciding factor.
Sometimes you can find a good tube console for rebuilding, using it whole if in nice shape . Whatever you do keep all the electronics from it including speakers as they are usually high efficiency and have crossover electronics.
A stand alone amp is usually higher quality than what is found in a console, though sometimes they were found in them. Output transformers are the key to the quality on a tube amp as the rest can usually be upgraded.
Used or new shouldn't just be plugged in without speakers as output transformers can be ruined. Also a variac and light bulb in series should be used to bring it up to voltage, (old & newly built.) Capacitors are the reason. They get old , dry up and leak current causing shorts and burned out transformers which can be very expensive to find or fix.
I know I was confused at first, but gradually it sunk in about the basics and what people are talking about.
Other big forms to look at are audioasylum, audiokarma and videokarma. Diytube sells Dynaco boards etc and has a Form. Antiqueradios has vintage form.
There are many diy speaker forms including here.
In all I think a really good EL84 PP amp may be a good start as everyone likes the sound of those tubes and you don't need the highest efficiency speakers which are more $.
Also tubes are in production and very affordable.
It will be hard to do for low $ with speakers & shipping taxes etc., but look at the tubelab.com site for a start.
His site is messed up, but just click on all the blue links and you will get around. George has a Form on this site. Google differences between PP and SE for differences and opinions if you don't know. Lot's of info if you look. Lot's of help too.
He sells boards for a SE called the Simple SE and a PP EL84 amp called the Simple PP. He has a parts kit for the PP for $65 and may have one done in the new year for the SE. All boards are $35 and are Stereo. You still have to buy transformers and tubes and make an enclosure or use an aluminum plate /chassis etc. You will usually need big high efficiency speakers for small SE amps.
Maybe you can scrounge for used parts or vintage amps and speakers too. Like a kit as will need rebuilding. Speakers can be refoamed. Dynaco's can be good with mods on some and affordable. There are even new clones and whole kits, but will cost you all of your $600 with shipping and taxes. Dynakit ST-35 from dynakit and diytubes version. Stock said to be the best sounding Dynacos, but not many were sold as the higher power ST-70 wasn't much more in cost for double the power. A used working ST-70 for around $350 may be a good start as there where 350K built. New kits start at $700 without tubes. There are many boards out there to upgrade it as some don,t like the stock amp. ST-35 is 17W/CH and ST-70 is 35W/CH, but speakers will be the deciding factor.
Sometimes you can find a good tube console for rebuilding, using it whole if in nice shape . Whatever you do keep all the electronics from it including speakers as they are usually high efficiency and have crossover electronics.
A stand alone amp is usually higher quality than what is found in a console, though sometimes they were found in them. Output transformers are the key to the quality on a tube amp as the rest can usually be upgraded.
Used or new shouldn't just be plugged in without speakers as output transformers can be ruined. Also a variac and light bulb in series should be used to bring it up to voltage, (old & newly built.) Capacitors are the reason. They get old , dry up and leak current causing shorts and burned out transformers which can be very expensive to find or fix.
I know I was confused at first, but gradually it sunk in about the basics and what people are talking about.
Other big forms to look at are audioasylum, audiokarma and videokarma. Diytube sells Dynaco boards etc and has a Form. Antiqueradios has vintage form.
There are many diy speaker forms including here.
In all I think a really good EL84 PP amp may be a good start as everyone likes the sound of those tubes and you don't need the highest efficiency speakers which are more $.
Also tubes are in production and very affordable.
Not exactly high efficiency, but the Alpair 6p in P10 mMar-Ken boxes are my current fave for desktop duty. The only amp I haven't tried with them is my old PP EL84 HK, wired in triode. All my other amps are overkill for the desktop, but all sound good with these speakers.
jeff
Thanks for the response. What would you think about me starting on an S5 Electronics 12G kit (Untitled) and getting some Fostex FF85WK 3" Full Range speakers (Fostex FF85WK 3" Full Range: Madisound Speaker Store) to use in a cabinet I construct? This should easily be able to be done in my price range. I see good things about both these speakers and these amps (not the L series though). Fostex even has some simple (too simple?) designs for bookshelf speaker cabinets.
I was looking at those drivers, as well at the 6M. The 6M might be the way to go for me since they are apparently a little bassier, and I'll be ditching my sub. I can't find this cabinet you're talking about though. Do you have a link?
Pretty sure there has been a revision for this design, along with a subscription cost. Probably best to email Dave.
jeff
Mark said it here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mark...m-gen-2-metal-introduction-2.html#post2362444
He also said in that thread in post #24 that "It was my intension to lower the total Q and Fo on the 6M making it more desirable for desk-top and near-field use, where smaller volumes are desired."
That attachment won't open with either SumatraPDF or Adobe Acrobat
Ok, let's try that again:
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/mMar-Ken6-1v0-map-231009.pdf
jeff
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/mMar-Ken6-1v0-map-231009.pdf
jeff
On the S-5 electronics amps, what's wrong with the L series? They use the better tubes! 6005 are nice like 6V6 but no longer in production. You could always make adapter sockets later if needed. For a few more $ best deal. Plus they sell tubes for them for a reasonable price.
They don't sell the tubes for the other G series and it looks like they are discontinuing it. Probably those tubes are getting hard to find. Good ones may be hard to find as they would be a tricky tube to make with a combined preamp section with the output. The 16W/CH L series would be the better pick IMHO as you wouldn't have to turn it up as loud where distortion would be higher. Mono 16W best still because of stereo separation.
Look at the distortion figures though! Bass will be poor because of the size of OPT's too! You could always buy better OPT's later as many end up doing with these.
Anyway don't rush and due diligence will help as your doing!
Regards,
Randy
They don't sell the tubes for the other G series and it looks like they are discontinuing it. Probably those tubes are getting hard to find. Good ones may be hard to find as they would be a tricky tube to make with a combined preamp section with the output. The 16W/CH L series would be the better pick IMHO as you wouldn't have to turn it up as loud where distortion would be higher. Mono 16W best still because of stereo separation.
Look at the distortion figures though! Bass will be poor because of the size of OPT's too! You could always buy better OPT's later as many end up doing with these.
Anyway don't rush and due diligence will help as your doing!
Regards,
Randy
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I say that they don't look very good largely because of this review: DIY Audio Projects - Hi-Fi Blog for DIY Audiophiles: Audio Paradox - S-5 Electronics K-8LS Tube Amp Kit
The other one will be much same as it's also the transformers as mentioned. That's where those distortion figures came from.
Start with the Dynaco clone ST-35 OPT's http://triodeelectronics.com/z517wadyoutr.html and pick Tubelab EL84 PP board mentioned . You could always save up for a housing or base later. Triode Electronics sells the OPT's for $79 ea, PS trans $60 or less if you use a toroid. The 330-0-330 triode sells in the transformer bundle may have to high a voltage as 280-0-280 or 300-0-300 is recommended. George's Tubelab board kit @ $100 and say $100 for recommended JJ EL output tubes ,2- 12AT7's NOS tubes and Shuguang 5AR4 rect. tubes and a vol. control. RCA inputs and speaker outputs say $20 at the most. You could temp. put it on a board and find a cheap wire basket to protect it if necessary. Say $450 (as vol control may be a bit more.) before GST and shipping. You will have a top notch amp! You won't need to replace it or want to! Anyway lot's of help here!
Regards,
Randy
Start with the Dynaco clone ST-35 OPT's http://triodeelectronics.com/z517wadyoutr.html and pick Tubelab EL84 PP board mentioned . You could always save up for a housing or base later. Triode Electronics sells the OPT's for $79 ea, PS trans $60 or less if you use a toroid. The 330-0-330 triode sells in the transformer bundle may have to high a voltage as 280-0-280 or 300-0-300 is recommended. George's Tubelab board kit @ $100 and say $100 for recommended JJ EL output tubes ,2- 12AT7's NOS tubes and Shuguang 5AR4 rect. tubes and a vol. control. RCA inputs and speaker outputs say $20 at the most. You could temp. put it on a board and find a cheap wire basket to protect it if necessary. Say $450 (as vol control may be a bit more.) before GST and shipping. You will have a top notch amp! You won't need to replace it or want to! Anyway lot's of help here!
Regards,
Randy
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I see the Tubelab EL84 boards on his site, but I don't see them being available to order anywhere. I only see prototypes of the PP boards, and see only SE boards to order.
If I were to go with this setup you mentioned rmyauck, I would go for the Hammond 300-0-300 PS trans as he has tested his with it.
Did you account for the misc. parts such as capacitors, resistors, tube sockets, ect? I see you say his board kit, so I'm assuming you did in this, but his website says he's not selling kits. Also, would there be a layout sheet I can use so I don't mess things up? I would prefer not to rely on my schematic reading abilities.
If I were to go with this setup you mentioned rmyauck, I would go for the Hammond 300-0-300 PS trans as he has tested his with it.
Did you account for the misc. parts such as capacitors, resistors, tube sockets, ect? I see you say his board kit, so I'm assuming you did in this, but his website says he's not selling kits. Also, would there be a layout sheet I can use so I don't mess things up? I would prefer not to rely on my schematic reading abilities.
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I think the EL84 PP have been available fore some time
also take a look at SY's el84 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/81492-red-light-district-another-pp-el84-amp.html
there are a couple other 'simple' el84 amps on the forum, but I cant find them right now
The ST-35 kit or the Tubelab SPP are excellent choices for a first time build. They aren't too big and complicated. The SPP is an easy build, but an ST-35 kit would be much easier to build because the chassis is included.
I would look in to upgrading your sound card first. I just don't like Xi-Fi sound cards, they sound terrible to me. They also seem to do unnecessary digital processing even with all of the fancy settings off. Unfortunately there aren't much in the way of good sound cards out there. A good external DAC or a pro-audio style sound card will help immensely.
George has the Simple PP (SPP) boards available, his site is just horribly out of date. Actually, I just got another one in the mail today.
Just follow the ordering instructions page and mention you want a SPP board in your message. Read this post for some more information: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubelab/195626-board-availability.html
PCB_ordering
Simple P-P Manual
The X-Fi Prelude is a fantastic sound card, and no, I will not be changing it. Make no mistakes about it, it's NOT a typical Creative X-Fi card.
I am leaning towards getting the Simple PP board and kit, and I see in that he supposedly has some kits assembled so this is the likely way I'll go. I'll probably stick with rmyauck's recommendations, though I will likely build the kit as-is and change it later if I feel I need to.
It looks like I might need to wait a bit to build the speakers. That shouldn't be a huge problem as the Z-5500's use 8 Ohm speakers so I can use them to break in the amp.
I am leaning towards getting the Simple PP board and kit, and I see in that he supposedly has some kits assembled so this is the likely way I'll go. I'll probably stick with rmyauck's recommendations, though I will likely build the kit as-is and change it later if I feel I need to.
It looks like I might need to wait a bit to build the speakers. That shouldn't be a huge problem as the Z-5500's use 8 Ohm speakers so I can use them to break in the amp.
I have plenty of both in stock. Yes, my web site is in need of a serious refresh. I have a full time engineering job that has been consuming most of my time lately, so it is slow coming but I am working on it.
The parts kit includes all of the parts that go on the PC board except tubes. You will still need tubes, transformers, a volume pot, input jacks, speaker jacks, a power cord or IEC receptacle and fuse holder with fuse.
The board is $35, the parts kit is $65 and shipping to Canada is $15 ($8 in the US).
.
I am currently vacationing in West Virginia. I brought boards and parts kits with me. Trust me the post office lines are far shorter here than in Fort Lauderdale Florida. I sent your board Tuesday Afternoon.
There is a long thread here about the SPP. It covers several builds.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubelab/148694-tubelab-simple-p-p.html
I can't speak about the S-5 kits since I have never seen one but the 6005 is an industrial number for the 6AQ5. True the 6AQ5 is no longer made, but over a million of them were made in the past and they are very common all over the world.
Thanks for the response. What volume pot would you recommend? Also, what amperage of fuse would you recommend for this?
The volume pot should be a dual audio taper pot with a value from 10K to 50K ohms. I use a 50K pot. There are dozens of volume pots available ranging from $1 to over $50 each. There are some valid reasons to spend big $$$$ on a volume pot, but I use the budget Alpha's from Mouser for most builds.
RV24BF-10-15R1-A50K Alpha (Taiwan) Potentiometers
The fuse should be a 2 amp slow blow fuse. It needs to match the size of the fuseholder you use. I bought a bunch of IEC power sockets that have the fuseholder built in at a hamfest a few years ago and I have been using them. They take a tiny fuse which is available at Radio Shack. A seperate socket or power cord and a conventional fuse holder would be a bit cheaper if you have to order them.
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