Citing gobbledegook in place of actual information is not a suitable place to begin a discussion. The facts are simple enough. A large lump of brass can be far more conductive than a small lump of copper (or silver). Don't forget: YOU are the one banging on about conductivity. I showed you just how much more conductive a small brass standoff is, compared to a length of speaker cable.
You seem to be operating under some kind of delusion that ALL specs are equal. They're not. For example: Your ME550 has VERY poor specs, compared to most cheap Asian sourced amplifiers, IN SOME AREAS. In other, possibly more important, areas, your ME550 outperforms most Asian amplifiers with consummate ease.
So, it's not specs, per se, that matter. It's WHICH specs and how those specs relate to stuff that is connected to the amplifier that may matter more.
Make no mistake: Specs matter. A lot. It takes a lot of understanding to figure out which specs matter though.
What delusions do you imagine I suffer?
Self-important? Nope.
Do I know a lot? Oh yeah. You could do worse than heeding my advice.
I've been listening to people who know what they are talking about for many, many decades and I will continue to do so. I've chased many rabbits down many holes, such that I have a good idea of what makes sense and what doesn't.
...the conditioned thinking that is stopping you from moving forward...
Pot, kettle, black.
Hi TS,
It is important when considering new ideas that you have a good stock of truths to allow yourself to stay within the realm of reality. I have a pretty open mind, expect in situations where I already know from experience what can and cannot be. Anyone can throw knowledge to the side and accept whatever they want. But allowing facts to guide our path does get us to the truth of the matter.
The human mind is a very powerful thing. We can believe certain things to be true even when contrary proof is right before our eyes. Having a sense of what is and isn't possible is a requirement for people doing our jobs. We do component level work, and as such are put directly in the path of a physics lesson if we fail to acknowledge what is and isn't possible. We are forced to follow the rules of physics in order to be successful at what we do. We can't allow ourselves to believe things which are beyond our abilities. Our jobs are pretty hard on egos, so we learn to get through life with minimal ego and the ability to learn new things through evidence.
Now that you're pretty sure you know what is going on in electronics on a molecular level, why not actually take the subject up and learn how little electrons really work. This is required knowledge for the courses we took to learn our trade. I can guarantee you that if you do well in electronics, your current view will have changed. The two cannot co-exist.
-Chris
With all due respect, I think not.
It is important when considering new ideas that you have a good stock of truths to allow yourself to stay within the realm of reality. I have a pretty open mind, expect in situations where I already know from experience what can and cannot be. Anyone can throw knowledge to the side and accept whatever they want. But allowing facts to guide our path does get us to the truth of the matter.
The human mind is a very powerful thing. We can believe certain things to be true even when contrary proof is right before our eyes. Having a sense of what is and isn't possible is a requirement for people doing our jobs. We do component level work, and as such are put directly in the path of a physics lesson if we fail to acknowledge what is and isn't possible. We are forced to follow the rules of physics in order to be successful at what we do. We can't allow ourselves to believe things which are beyond our abilities. Our jobs are pretty hard on egos, so we learn to get through life with minimal ego and the ability to learn new things through evidence.
Now that you're pretty sure you know what is going on in electronics on a molecular level, why not actually take the subject up and learn how little electrons really work. This is required knowledge for the courses we took to learn our trade. I can guarantee you that if you do well in electronics, your current view will have changed. The two cannot co-exist.
-Chris
Dearest Zaph --- if you read my comment mindfully, you will note that I was indicating comparing the 'same mass' of brass compared with silver or copper..., where the silver/copper would have a far greater amount of conductivity than the same mass of brass...
...its important not to block progress by being in denial - you need to carefully consider the truth of what I was communicating - I was speaking of empirical results that translate into good sound reproduction - rather than theorizing with a risk of little substance translating into reality - in comparison - which is likely to give sub-optimal results without significant listening tests and comparisons...with 'before and after' scenarios...
Cheers
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Hi Dan,
Board level technician? I wish our lives were so simple! Zaphod Beeblebrox and I both service to component level from system on down. That requires an entirely different level of understanding.
If you were a good component level technician, your current ideas wouldn't be acceptable to you. You would have an entirely different understanding about what is going on in your systems when you make these changes and see the differences. I'm not there, so I can't tell what the exact situation is that you're testing under. If you are truly hearing a difference, then there is something else going on. You're not hearing the difference solely due to the silver. Something else is going on too. Could be anything from RF interference to you solving a problem through your actions. No, the problem is not leaded solder. If it were, then lab instrumentation and cutting edge science would use more silver than you can imagine. The common connector in calibration and science labs? Pure copper. The only silver I've seen are in decade resistance boxes in the heavy switches. For potentials in the uV, we use copper. If silver was better, we would use that instead, but we don't. The reason isn't cost either. The fact is that copper to dissimilar metal contacts generate the lowest voltage gradient. A copper to copper connection doesn't generate any emf at all.
I'd love to have super powers, but wishing or believing I do will never make it happen.
-Chris
Board level technician? I wish our lives were so simple! Zaphod Beeblebrox and I both service to component level from system on down. That requires an entirely different level of understanding.
If you were a good component level technician, your current ideas wouldn't be acceptable to you. You would have an entirely different understanding about what is going on in your systems when you make these changes and see the differences. I'm not there, so I can't tell what the exact situation is that you're testing under. If you are truly hearing a difference, then there is something else going on. You're not hearing the difference solely due to the silver. Something else is going on too. Could be anything from RF interference to you solving a problem through your actions. No, the problem is not leaded solder. If it were, then lab instrumentation and cutting edge science would use more silver than you can imagine. The common connector in calibration and science labs? Pure copper. The only silver I've seen are in decade resistance boxes in the heavy switches. For potentials in the uV, we use copper. If silver was better, we would use that instead, but we don't. The reason isn't cost either. The fact is that copper to dissimilar metal contacts generate the lowest voltage gradient. A copper to copper connection doesn't generate any emf at all.
I'd love to have super powers, but wishing or believing I do will never make it happen.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
...the thing is - ones ears can tell the difference - no matter how sound the theory may appear - in the comparison of 'before/after' - this is where the rubber hits the road..., however - it is clear that silver is much more conductive @ 105% conductivity - this speaks volumes...
...the thing is - ones ears can tell the difference - no matter how sound the theory may appear - in the comparison of 'before/after' - this is where the rubber hits the road..., however - it is clear that silver is much more conductive @ 105% conductivity - this speaks volumes...
Duh. And I am saying that the mass of brass in the standoff means that it's resistance is utterly insignificant. Particularly, when compared to your speaker cables, which possess a resistance several orders of magnitude greater.
Pot, kettle, black. I am not the one in denial.
No, you were not. You made an unsubstantiated claim about brass standoffs.
rather than theorizing with a risk of little substance translating into reality - in comparison - which is likely to give sub-optimal results without significant listening tests and comparisons...with 'before and after' scenarios...
Cheers
And you have yet to do any blind listening tests to validate your bizarre claims.
I have. Many times. You are not the first to claim that brass standoffs are audibly inferior to other metals. I commissioned a set of pure copper standoffs for a client's ME850 amplifier (an amplifier with considerably higher resolution than your ME550, BTW). We did a blind test between the brass and the copper standoffs. He could not hear any difference. Which is precisely what theory would tell us.
Again: The resistance of your speaker cables will completely swamp any differences in brass vs. copper or silver resistivity.
Wanna make a difference to the sound of your system?
Here's what you can do:
* Invest in room treatments.
* Use RG213/U speaker cable.
The cost of both mods is minimal.
Hi TS,
As soon as you modify a speaker crossover to any other type of capacitor than it was designed with, you will change the frequency response. I have had people come into my shop with speakers that were "upgraded" and were no longer flat. It's not better, it is no longer a flat response. Especially when electrolytic capacitors are replaced with any film type of capacitor.
As I stated, I have built various jigs using all silver products. This was earlier in life when I thought their might be something to the hype. I'm much older and wiser now and I know better.
I spent some time working in a calibration lab as a journeyman level calibration technician. I was one of two people who passed our internal audit and was allowed to create data test sheets for new equipment that all 13 labs would use. We measured electronic values well below what you are looking at. Materials were important. The connectors on the calibrators were tellurium copper. Yes, there really is such a material that exists outside of Star Trek. We ran into silver used in specific applications, which were generally contacts for switches and relays. It wasn't generally used in circuitry or solder unless that solder had to be physically strong. Then it was alloyed with ... LEAD. PC boards in precision equipment was generally soldered with eutectic lead-tin (63/37) and never silver, never a lead-free product either. Today things might be different, but back then lead alloys made the most reliable solder connections.
I'll tell you right now, had there been any benefit to use silver in solder, or a lead-free silver based solder, it would have been used by the leading manufacturer. We're talking equipment that cost what it cost to make properly. We're talking equipment that had a budgetary price range, but it allowed for the use of any material that was deemed advantageous to use. This equipment smokes anything in the land of audio for resolution and repeatable results. One meter I used was 8 1/2 digits! It was the HP 3458A, and it is still a current model today under Keysight. The voltage reference used in that is less noisy and more consistent in value than anything you can imagine. We had equipment that would hold thermocouples within 1/4 °C of zero in our 21 °C lab while measuring values less than 1 mV accurately and repeatedly.
The audio equipment you talk about are mere toys compared to standard calibration lab equipment, and the attention to materials more important and focused than the silver you are talking about. From knowing what most calibration technicians know, your stance on this subject is a sad joke. It was a bit funny and quaint in the beginning, but you're so far off into the weeds with this that it is no longer the least bit amusing.
I beg of you, please study some materials science. That, and realise that when you change components, you are changing much more than lead for silver. You basically ran a series of experiments with more than your test material as a variable. As you should know, a test is only valid if you control everything except the one variable you are testing.
-Chris
As soon as you modify a speaker crossover to any other type of capacitor than it was designed with, you will change the frequency response. I have had people come into my shop with speakers that were "upgraded" and were no longer flat. It's not better, it is no longer a flat response. Especially when electrolytic capacitors are replaced with any film type of capacitor.
As I stated, I have built various jigs using all silver products. This was earlier in life when I thought their might be something to the hype. I'm much older and wiser now and I know better.
I spent some time working in a calibration lab as a journeyman level calibration technician. I was one of two people who passed our internal audit and was allowed to create data test sheets for new equipment that all 13 labs would use. We measured electronic values well below what you are looking at. Materials were important. The connectors on the calibrators were tellurium copper. Yes, there really is such a material that exists outside of Star Trek. We ran into silver used in specific applications, which were generally contacts for switches and relays. It wasn't generally used in circuitry or solder unless that solder had to be physically strong. Then it was alloyed with ... LEAD. PC boards in precision equipment was generally soldered with eutectic lead-tin (63/37) and never silver, never a lead-free product either. Today things might be different, but back then lead alloys made the most reliable solder connections.
I'll tell you right now, had there been any benefit to use silver in solder, or a lead-free silver based solder, it would have been used by the leading manufacturer. We're talking equipment that cost what it cost to make properly. We're talking equipment that had a budgetary price range, but it allowed for the use of any material that was deemed advantageous to use. This equipment smokes anything in the land of audio for resolution and repeatable results. One meter I used was 8 1/2 digits! It was the HP 3458A, and it is still a current model today under Keysight. The voltage reference used in that is less noisy and more consistent in value than anything you can imagine. We had equipment that would hold thermocouples within 1/4 °C of zero in our 21 °C lab while measuring values less than 1 mV accurately and repeatedly.
The audio equipment you talk about are mere toys compared to standard calibration lab equipment, and the attention to materials more important and focused than the silver you are talking about. From knowing what most calibration technicians know, your stance on this subject is a sad joke. It was a bit funny and quaint in the beginning, but you're so far off into the weeds with this that it is no longer the least bit amusing.
I beg of you, please study some materials science. That, and realise that when you change components, you are changing much more than lead for silver. You basically ran a series of experiments with more than your test material as a variable. As you should know, a test is only valid if you control everything except the one variable you are testing.
-Chris
Duh?? --- You should not be so hard on yourself Zaph !!
...if you have a logical mind (just try - you would be surprised) you would see that more audio signal would travel at a faster rate through a higher conductive metal giving more clarity - than a signal going through a less conductive metal...
...try using logic and reason - not beliefs based on indoctrination...
...do you not read what I wrote?? How many times have I stated that I am speaking in real terms - the sonic difference that is heard, not just by myself, but by ALL who hear my modded equipment...
...Zaph - you need to read my comments fully conscious - it appears you may be just glancing over them while doing other things ...
...your statement makes no logical nor scientific sense...re: brass - its only 28% conductive...vs silver 105% conductive...
...do you use an ear syringe to rinse the wax out of your ears before each listening test?? Perhaps you may like to consider it would be to your advantage to obtain one --- (stainless steel is the best) ...
...so, tell me more about these mods you suggest...I am open to learning more about this...
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Duh?? You should not be so hard on yourself
...if you have a logical mind (just try - you would be surprised) you would see that more audio signal would travel at a faster rate through a higher conductive metal giving more clarity - than a signal going through a less conductive metal...
Again: You are just sprouting meaningless gobbledeook. I'm talking about relative resistance figures. Not only are the differences unmeasurable by anything outside a NASA laboratory, but no human ear could hope to hear any difference.
I operate solely on logic and reason.
I do, but you frequently make no sense.
I can state, with absolute confidence, that you have never heard the difference between a brass standoff and one made from another metal. Moreover, I am pretty certain that you have never engaged in a properly conducted DBT (or even just a regular blind test) to verify your hypotheses.
Again, with the rudeness.
So? What is the resistive difference and the relative difference to (say) your speaker cables?
...do you use an ear syringe to rinse the wax out of your ears before each listening test?? Perhaps you may like to consider it would be to your advantage to obtain one --- (stainless steel is the best) ...
Again with the rudeness.
I just told you.
Room treatments.
RG213/U speaker cable.
With the recent OT posts, this thread has run its course and is hereby closed.- Status
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