Hi Dan,
Just how do you expect to get the lead out? That statement is absurd. Most solder is made of some percentage of lead, and the lead free solder hasn't been reliable until recently. That's why Medical, Military, Telecom are exempted from the lead free rules. They sure as heck use it whenever high reliability solder connections are required!
That you and anyone else can hear the presence of lead or silver is a myth, a complete myth as well. Expectation bias is insidious and next to impossible to eradicate. Why do you think that listening tests are so exhaustive and expensive to set up? In my own admittedly ad-hoc tests, people who swear they can hear the difference have not been any better than random probability. They finally admitted they can't tell - yet they still hold onto the fact they can hear different power cords. They can't with equipment with good power supplies like the ones I've modified. These people are die-hard golden ears folks who charge for their assistance. Not for the tests I've run though.
I'm really sorry Dan, but I have to call "poppycock" on your claims.
Additionally, I can see things they really can hear on my test equipment. I can see things they can't hear (quite commonly in fact). The only thing we've been able to establish is that some people can hear something when there is a problem. The problem can be either component failure or degradation, or design defects. I think it's cool they can hear these things but those abilities do not extend to the levels you are claiming. Sorry but the proof doesn't exist north of the equator. Maybe the spin of the electrons are different up here than down under?
Since the time people could recognise the truth, they have stopped modifying and swapping audio gear and are much happier. All we do is stabilise the equipment they like, improving the sound quality in the process. They are now pretty happy with a static "rig" as they call it. Yet, they hang onto things like cable lifts. I guess once you own it ...
So at the end of several years of study, you can't hear silver and you can't hear a lead alloy for soldering. In fact, solder works by alloying itself with the leg of the component. Silver solder does the same, but not as effectively and lead-free solders are probably still developing on that front. It does require higher temperatures and the polystyrene capacitors I use wouldn't like that very much!
-Chris
Just how do you expect to get the lead out? That statement is absurd. Most solder is made of some percentage of lead, and the lead free solder hasn't been reliable until recently. That's why Medical, Military, Telecom are exempted from the lead free rules. They sure as heck use it whenever high reliability solder connections are required!
That you and anyone else can hear the presence of lead or silver is a myth, a complete myth as well. Expectation bias is insidious and next to impossible to eradicate. Why do you think that listening tests are so exhaustive and expensive to set up? In my own admittedly ad-hoc tests, people who swear they can hear the difference have not been any better than random probability. They finally admitted they can't tell - yet they still hold onto the fact they can hear different power cords. They can't with equipment with good power supplies like the ones I've modified. These people are die-hard golden ears folks who charge for their assistance. Not for the tests I've run though.
I'm really sorry Dan, but I have to call "poppycock" on your claims.
Additionally, I can see things they really can hear on my test equipment. I can see things they can't hear (quite commonly in fact). The only thing we've been able to establish is that some people can hear something when there is a problem. The problem can be either component failure or degradation, or design defects. I think it's cool they can hear these things but those abilities do not extend to the levels you are claiming. Sorry but the proof doesn't exist north of the equator. Maybe the spin of the electrons are different up here than down under?
Since the time people could recognise the truth, they have stopped modifying and swapping audio gear and are much happier. All we do is stabilise the equipment they like, improving the sound quality in the process. They are now pretty happy with a static "rig" as they call it. Yet, they hang onto things like cable lifts. I guess once you own it ...
So at the end of several years of study, you can't hear silver and you can't hear a lead alloy for soldering. In fact, solder works by alloying itself with the leg of the component. Silver solder does the same, but not as effectively and lead-free solders are probably still developing on that front. It does require higher temperatures and the polystyrene capacitors I use wouldn't like that very much!
-Chris
By several desolder/resolder cycles the most of, if not all lead can be removed.
Lead free exemption is fast running out for some of your above mentioned applications.
Damn right I can, and others also.
Stop listening to lead and your hearing will improve, seriously.
Dan.
Hi Dan,
Dan, I sincerely hope you aren't actually doing this to any customers. What you are doing is pointless, destructive and not to mention, extremely expensive. No matter how earnestly you claim you can hear the solder type, you can't. It's a pipe dream, humans do not possess acute hearing that can detect no difference to a signal, but your brain can tell you you can. That's what is so sad. You believe so you will convince others this is true, then milk them for this process.
We'll call it, the church of silver and lead. BTW, just got a verbal report from a transformer engineer specializing in audio that the silver signal transformers we sent in for examination had no special properties, and that the hand wound nature of them produced two different sets of specs for the pair we sent in. Nothing that the golden ears crowd believes and spends money on is panning out. These transformers were from Switzerland. He's sending us prototypes of a pair to replace them that have superior specifications. They went into a CD player from the 'States that ran on batteries. A CD player from a complete nut job. This CD player doesn't work well and has technical errors as the cause. The transformers were the only salvageable bits and it turns out they are only good for selling to some other poor sap who believe in these. If you heard these Dan, you would hear a difference. But that would be due to a defect in manufacture and design. You might even pick these out to be superior because they have a "sound", a voice. They shouldn't.
-Chris
That might be possible, however most components and PCBs will not survive this while still being reliable. If it is, you didn't get all the lead out. Also, if anything I made had this done, not only would any warranty be instantly null and void, but I might have to repair by replacement. I won't be on the hook for guaranteeing anything that some non-professionals have had a go at like this. You might be a professional sound engineer (I'm guessing and will give you that), but you don't understand the first thing about soldering and product reliability. Just considering that course of action tells me all I have to know about the level of understanding you have about soldering.
That may be, but it will not end as long as the reliability cannot equal the leaded types. Once there is an alternative, sure.
Dan, I sincerely hope you aren't actually doing this to any customers. What you are doing is pointless, destructive and not to mention, extremely expensive. No matter how earnestly you claim you can hear the solder type, you can't. It's a pipe dream, humans do not possess acute hearing that can detect no difference to a signal, but your brain can tell you you can. That's what is so sad. You believe so you will convince others this is true, then milk them for this process.
We'll call it, the church of silver and lead. BTW, just got a verbal report from a transformer engineer specializing in audio that the silver signal transformers we sent in for examination had no special properties, and that the hand wound nature of them produced two different sets of specs for the pair we sent in. Nothing that the golden ears crowd believes and spends money on is panning out. These transformers were from Switzerland. He's sending us prototypes of a pair to replace them that have superior specifications. They went into a CD player from the 'States that ran on batteries. A CD player from a complete nut job. This CD player doesn't work well and has technical errors as the cause. The transformers were the only salvageable bits and it turns out they are only good for selling to some other poor sap who believe in these. If you heard these Dan, you would hear a difference. But that would be due to a defect in manufacture and design. You might even pick these out to be superior because they have a "sound", a voice. They shouldn't.
Nothing wrong with my hearing beyond age related issues. My system is quite good and the golden ears crowd is the group that told me that. I went by instrument and ear when doing the modifications. These made measureable differences.
-Chris
Regarding silver components and lead free silver solder etc...
...my attitude is simple, the more lead that is in the system, the greater the obstacle to better sound...The less lead and more sonically conductive/better materials - the less the obstacle to better sound...
...as components are upgraded - using good conductive materials that do not inhibit the sound signal path incrementally improves sound quality...This is my attitude, and when I upgrade components or get that done, I always use or supply silver solder...
...saying that, a number of circuit boards I have seen are gold plated. Gold is not as conductive as silver but is 2nd best, and the best to use regarding being corrosion free...Some like found in the ProAC tablettes are plated with what may be a silver content tin coating...I did not change the caps in the ProACS though - due to space considerations as the Alcap's are smaller and Ansars much larger - only the wiring with silver strips and resoldering with silver solder, but did a thorough overhaul of the ARCAM II's using Ansars and silver strips, also using silver speaker terminal connections - and although the ProACs improved considerably --- the detail in the ARCAM II's is now greater overall to the ProAC's - where before it was not. The ProAC's do however excel in vocal projection and imaging like they never did before...precise and life-like...
...I can categorically state - that the upgrades I made to the speakers I mentioned - which was using annealed silver strips, capacitors with silver leads, Mundorf silver solder, which includes laying extra silver solder on some tracks...has made a difference like night and day...
...What in comparison was a mediocre sound - now sounds vibrant and even startling with good recordings...Those who listen comment on how lifelike and detailed the sound is...
...its pointless just using conditioned logic to convince oneself otherwise; rather a hi-fi component needs to be completely modified to hear the amazing difference - which in my case usually is speakers, which are much easier to do from a technical point and hands-on perspective..., as I am practically minded but am not an electronics technician/engineer, however I do know what works - when it works, as do others who hear the difference...
...However, I have also modified internal turntable wiring with silver plated wiring right through to the RCA's as one lead...and resoldered all the components with silver wire and changed the caps to Elna Silmic silks in a low-cost phono preamp (TC-750) with amazing results for the cost incurred in comparison to stock - just with some investment in time and knowing which components would give a superior result...
...my attitude is simple, the more lead that is in the system, the greater the obstacle to better sound...The less lead and more sonically conductive/better materials - the less the obstacle to better sound...
...as components are upgraded - using good conductive materials that do not inhibit the sound signal path incrementally improves sound quality...This is my attitude, and when I upgrade components or get that done, I always use or supply silver solder...
...saying that, a number of circuit boards I have seen are gold plated. Gold is not as conductive as silver but is 2nd best, and the best to use regarding being corrosion free...Some like found in the ProAC tablettes are plated with what may be a silver content tin coating...I did not change the caps in the ProACS though - due to space considerations as the Alcap's are smaller and Ansars much larger - only the wiring with silver strips and resoldering with silver solder, but did a thorough overhaul of the ARCAM II's using Ansars and silver strips, also using silver speaker terminal connections - and although the ProACs improved considerably --- the detail in the ARCAM II's is now greater overall to the ProAC's - where before it was not. The ProAC's do however excel in vocal projection and imaging like they never did before...precise and life-like...
...I can categorically state - that the upgrades I made to the speakers I mentioned - which was using annealed silver strips, capacitors with silver leads, Mundorf silver solder, which includes laying extra silver solder on some tracks...has made a difference like night and day...
...What in comparison was a mediocre sound - now sounds vibrant and even startling with good recordings...Those who listen comment on how lifelike and detailed the sound is...
...its pointless just using conditioned logic to convince oneself otherwise; rather a hi-fi component needs to be completely modified to hear the amazing difference - which in my case usually is speakers, which are much easier to do from a technical point and hands-on perspective..., as I am practically minded but am not an electronics technician/engineer, however I do know what works - when it works, as do others who hear the difference...
...However, I have also modified internal turntable wiring with silver plated wiring right through to the RCA's as one lead...and resoldered all the components with silver wire and changed the caps to Elna Silmic silks in a low-cost phono preamp (TC-750) with amazing results for the cost incurred in comparison to stock - just with some investment in time and knowing which components would give a superior result...
Last edited:
Nope.
How much silver is in your silver solder? 2%? 3%? More? Either way, your 'silver solder' is not really silver solder. It's lead solder with a little silver added. Your ME550 was built using 4% silver content solder, largely because high silver content solder is a little stronger than regular solder.
Not even close. Copper and silver are FAR more conductive than gold. Gold is used to prevent corrosion and make the PCB look pretty. Nothing more. It is an expensive method.
Last edited:
Nope?? LOL - you obviously are not aware of the various silver solders available and the fact that they are 'lead free' mostly. Only the ones used for sensitive circuitry contain a small fraction of lead for a lower melting point, but still have silver content.
2-3-4% silver is better than 'no percent' silver and translates to a better sonic edge in the signal path...
I know copper is more conductive than gold and I know gold is the better choice for anti-corrosive attributes - so your point is ???
I and others who have taken the time to modify our equipment - know the difference quite well - but you can continue on your path as you wish - if your happy --- I'm happy LOL
2-3-4% silver is better than 'no percent' silver and translates to a better sonic edge in the signal path...
I know copper is more conductive than gold and I know gold is the better choice for anti-corrosive attributes - so your point is ???
I and others who have taken the time to modify our equipment - know the difference quite well - but you can continue on your path as you wish - if your happy --- I'm happy LOL
Last edited:
Silver is 105% conductive...
Copper is 100% conductive...
Gold is 70% conductive..., so copper is a much better choice where there are no oxidative issues...however gold is better if there are...I did get some silver alloy speaker terminals that don't corrode - I find them most suitable...
Brass is 28% conductive...
One thing I am finding difficult to understand...Peter Stein used brass raised stand-off posts when I had my system upgraded by him, so that I could attach silver strips to them, however on researching - I discovered that brass has only 28% conductivity...which defeated the purpose...
...why brass was used has puzzled me ever since, however I bypassed them and hard-soldered the silver strips onto the circuit tracks with silver solder. I left his connections as they are. I will remove the brass stand-offs at some point and just bolt them down as they were originally - or put a silver strip from one end to another on the brass stand-offs...
I would use thick copper oxy-free speaker cable for internal wiring for a large woofer, but tweeter and midrange definitely silver...
Last edited:
There is quite a range of lead free solders available nowadays
Yes, provided there is no lead....silver and lead don't 'play nice' imo/ime....Multicore 96S (96% Tin, 4% Silver) sounds quite fine but LMP (62% Tin, 36% Lead, 2% Silver) initially sounds bright and clear but ultimately will drive you out if the room screaming......
[/QUOTE]I and others who have taken the time to modify our equipment - know the difference quite well - but you can continue on your path as you wish - if your happy --- I'm happy LOL[/QUOTE]
Modern ROHS standard is actually a good thing sonically I reckon.
Switching older gear to lead free solder works well in getting rid of a bunch of 'wrong' sounds ime......sure it takes a bit of time and significant amount of solder is used to 'rinse' existing desoldered joints, but the result can be worth the trouble.
Swapping out solder on speaker crossover/wiring/driver flex lead connections pays nice dividends without a lot of work and is in a sense the first place to start.
Dan.
So does using silver. Need I remind you that your speaker cables are probably copper, the inductors in your speakers are copper and the speaker voice coils are also copper. Assuming your speakers are rated at 8 Ohms, then the DC resistance of the voice coils is likely somewhere around 5 Ohms. The DC resistance of the speaker cables (assuming 3 Metres of heavy cable) is likely to be around 0.02 Ohms). Now, your brass spacers exhibit an approximate resistance of 0.00002 Ohms. Around 1,000 times less than your speaker cables and a couple of hundred thousand times less resistive than the internal resistance in your speakers. You are focussing on irrelevancies.
Brass is strong, stable, relatively corrosion resistant and plenty conductive enough.
OMG!!!
Never thought I would say that here.
TS, Dan. You are both under some serious misconceptions! The only time conductivity matters is when the impedance is on the order of the conductors at whatever frequency you're working at. This doesn't happen in the world of audio signal processing, and the currents that would make that factor important don't exist either. You're both chasing nymphs high on fairy dust!
One place where silver could maybe, possibly make a difference would be the automotive electrical system, and custom sound systems for same. Yet, silver is conspicuously absent from those areas. Why?
... come on, think about this because it is important and has a direct bearing on your current belief system ....
Because, the difference isn't great enough to matter. You'll see a gold plated car before you see silver used in the electrical system.
However, because of it's low resistance and more importantly it's hard wearing surface you will see silver used in relay contacts and switches. So evidently engineers are not afraid to use silver. Just not in low power applications where the actual resistance isn't a limiting factor in performance.
You're welcome to continue with this belief, just don't foist it on someone else, then fleece them for a lot of money making "improvements" that are actually quite ineffective. I would suggest that you both study the subject some before continuing.
Lastly, a lower resistance connection will not make anything sound "sharper". All signals are affected the same way and so the tonal balance of a sound will not change one iota if you change conductors to silver.
-Chris
Never thought I would say that here.
TS, Dan. You are both under some serious misconceptions! The only time conductivity matters is when the impedance is on the order of the conductors at whatever frequency you're working at. This doesn't happen in the world of audio signal processing, and the currents that would make that factor important don't exist either. You're both chasing nymphs high on fairy dust!
One place where silver could maybe, possibly make a difference would be the automotive electrical system, and custom sound systems for same. Yet, silver is conspicuously absent from those areas. Why?
... come on, think about this because it is important and has a direct bearing on your current belief system ....
Because, the difference isn't great enough to matter. You'll see a gold plated car before you see silver used in the electrical system.
However, because of it's low resistance and more importantly it's hard wearing surface you will see silver used in relay contacts and switches. So evidently engineers are not afraid to use silver. Just not in low power applications where the actual resistance isn't a limiting factor in performance.
You're welcome to continue with this belief, just don't foist it on someone else, then fleece them for a lot of money making "improvements" that are actually quite ineffective. I would suggest that you both study the subject some before continuing.
Lastly, a lower resistance connection will not make anything sound "sharper". All signals are affected the same way and so the tonal balance of a sound will not change one iota if you change conductors to silver.
-Chris
Its amazing that you are citing major differences in Z-value input <10ohms vs 68Kohms, that you perceived with your 'ears' - where no-one else has on this thread; and yet you have not taken the time to do so with silver content in Hi-Fi...which you refer to as 'irrelevancies'; that is a 28% in preference to 105% conductivity 'irrelevance', which is fine with you, yet you split hairs about Z-value input that no-one else really agrees with - including the designer...
My speaker cables are silver coated BTW...
...Chris...I have not only looked into this considerably over the years, but I have had hands-on experience with using silver on many occasions --- which has empirically proven itself to be sonically superior hands-down to any other metal...
...To say otherwise would be lying to myself and others in turn - this has been my experience - and my listening experience has been greatly enriched because of this - in a practical undeniable manner - not a theory that I am just bandying about...it worked very well for me in real terms - each and every time, that others also continually comment on who hear my system modified...its really that simple...
...its not so much 'tonal balance' but clarity and sonic acuity that becomes clearer and more pronounced...my tone controls are always set on neutral - if I have them. I prefer them not to be present on the pre-amp, nor any other controls - just pure amplification and volume control...
Last edited:
Chris, please don't get so up tight about your position.
Ime, materials can have 'signature', some of these signatures can play nice together, some signatures don't play nice together.
That's what I find, simple as that....once you learn to recognise these signatures you can control the combinations that work well together and weed out those that don't.
Once done with that you can then find mixtures of materials with signatures that dominate existing system signatures....for good or bad....or subjectively none....the interesting bit is why the subjective 'none' preference.
I've been called in to apply this dominant 'none' signature to a live recording system tonight.....it will be a whole lotta fun and will most certainly be an interesting recording, if not a hallmark recording.
Dan.
BTW I've been board level fixing audio for 40 years
Ime, materials can have 'signature', some of these signatures can play nice together, some signatures don't play nice together.
That's what I find, simple as that....once you learn to recognise these signatures you can control the combinations that work well together and weed out those that don't.
Once done with that you can then find mixtures of materials with signatures that dominate existing system signatures....for good or bad....or subjectively none....the interesting bit is why the subjective 'none' preference.
I've been called in to apply this dominant 'none' signature to a live recording system tonight.....it will be a whole lotta fun and will most certainly be an interesting recording, if not a hallmark recording.
Dan.
BTW I've been board level fixing audio for 40 years
Last edited:
Well, no one else has done the test. It's not all that surprising that no one else has heard the difference.
You're focussing on the wrong things again. The TOTAL resistance difference is what you need to look at. The percentage difference is utterly and completely irrelevant. The resistance of the brass standoff is roughly 100,000 times lower than the DC resistance of your speakers. Do you think you can hear a 0.000001% difference?
Let me let you in on a dirty little secret: You cannot hear a 1% difference. 10%? Possibly. 0.000001%? Not a snowball's chance in Hell.
Incorrect.
So are mine, but not for the reasons you imagine. Since I happen to prefer PTFE (aka: Teflon™) insulation, silver plating is mandatory.
The circuits are really simple. Picture a twin triode, cathode biased and transformer loaded - thats it.
Or, alternatively picture an LTP input stage with two triodes driving a PP line drive transformer in push-pull.
My issue is that if you are not across this, you should not be playing around with anything connected to mains power, where you have access to live terminals - I'm an electrician by trade.. I can see floating metal chassis, and all sorts of ugly stuff - depending on the circuit protection in your house, it could still kill you. And thats up to you, but you have read it now - so now you know this.
You could do worse than to find a local guy with some experience and leave all this (mess) behind - just focus on the two designs as presented, any guy worth their salt wont need to draw it up before he builds it up. Either design, properly built, will stomp that other JP thing, and then the ME preamp - and probably in that order.
Hanze.
Last edited:
ZB --- theorizing means nothing compared to reality - to those such as myself and those who have heard the difference after making the required changes.
...reality speaks volumes - that translates into a real and tangable sonic experience...philisophizing with theory means nothing, like looking at specs to buy HiFi equipment - it just does nothing if you don't hear the difference..
.
...I hope this helps you in initiating a greater understanding of sonic dimensions that goes beyond a 2-dimensional audio experience...
...I wish I could help you further, but I just don't know how and you seem very set in your rigid idea's - you need to relaxxx --- unwinddd... and let the information flow and expand past the limitations you appear to be placing on yourself...
Last edited:
I don't do anything I am uncertain about - in particular electronics which I why I prefer to see a schematic...
I think it safe to say that if you cannot visualise five (5) direct signal path components and how they fit together, to construct a single channel of amplification, you should not be building anything that connects to mains power.
Hanze: PGE 209366
Last edited:
I was confining my comments to your claims that brass possessed a much lower conductivity than another metal and, therefore, sounded inferior. You seem to neglect the fact that the AMOUNT of material makes up for the conductivity. The brass standoffs use a large amount of metal and are, therefore, highly conductive. Don't like that? Pay to have them silver plated. Shouldn't cost much. I like silver plating. It makes a great deal of sense. I once worked in communications and the HF transmission power amps I worked on used copious amounts of silver plating.
NOT one single designer of audio equipment does so, without using test equipment. Specifications are very important to every designer. Ignoring that fact will lead to disaster. Every single time. As will trying to design a piece of equipment without suitable test equipment. Small wiring and component changes can lead to large measurable and sonic differences. As, I suspect, you will soon find out.
Your rudeness knows no bounds. You know nothing about me and what I listen to, nor my long history in this business. I conducted and taken part in many blind tests, which have shown me the error of my ways and the errors in others' ways too. I've listened to some VERY expensive and allegedly very fine equipment which has been found to be seriously deficient. All done by blind tests. I've also heard some very nice, modestly priced equipment too.
My "rigid ideas" have been honed over 45 years' experience in all areas of the business. I know what I am talking about. In areas that I know little (valve preamp design, for instance) I don't say anything, unless it concerns pure listening tests. And I've listened to a lot over the years. Some were rubbish (ARC SP7, SP9, SP11) and some were superb (Conrad Johnson Premier 16, ARC Ref 10, Allen Wright's 12 valve preamp, etc)
- you need to relaxxx --- unwinddd... and let the information flow and expand past the limitations you appear to be placing on yourself...
What limitations do you imagine they might be?
...but Zaph --- the AMOUNT of MORE conductive material amounts to GREATER overall conductivity and therefore a greater sonically defined experience...
my dear fellow
If you read what I was saying, it was in the context of 'buying' equipment with a superior sound that is defined by the listening experience ie: TEAC or Technics or a product along those lines, might have good specs - but in comparison to more upper end products - they do not produce the sound quality and realism when heard...in real terms...
...our dear Zaph --- its time to let go of pride and any delusions of self-importance that might be inhibiting your further progress on the sonic path of inner inspiration and fulfillment - humility opens doors to greater understanding and knowing - while pride closes them and stifles progress...
...when we think we 'know', we know not - however, when we believe we can always improve - we move forward and keep improving beyond our expectations - it pays to listen to what others have to say and weigh all things with a focused sound mindfulness, my good fellow....
...the conditioned thinking that is stopping you from moving forward...
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.