It has been a while since I was able to post here, life ya know!
Anywhohow.Wha huh? yeah, so I did a lengthy search for this aspect throughout the forum and came up empty, so I shall ask the big question, gently.
I am leaning towards the EL34, but alternate options are the the 6L6 line, the 807 (glorified 6L6) 811 or the 813. (open to other thoughts on this)
So here is my question and it is strictly in the sense of the sound output and personal favorites.
Let me predicate this with the difference between amplifier class (SE P-P, A AB etc.) is not the aspect of my question. Removing the differences of the listening room, speakers chosen, amount of light in a room, color of the coffee and all that is not what I am requesting, so not an easy question really. This kinda brings my question to more of "is there a difference audibly between (tubes)?"
Reason I am asking is that I am preparing now to build my life long dream amp so got curious what others really thought!
I should allow one aspect here since how an amp is driven will impact the output sound, so that makes this a complex question. But I need to be fair as well as clear.
Aspects I will be hoping to hear about are "Clarity, Transparency, Dynamics, etc."
I listen to various styles myself, primarily classical, and a lot of modern rock (Pink Floyd, Straits, Clapton) Love the Irish and Celtic tunes, but I demand a lot from the sound what ever it be.
Your input here will be greatly appreciated and once I review the thoughts, I will happy to post the actual build.
I should note here that I will also design the amp circuit if and where at all possible. I will also be winding my own O-T's for this project.
HAPPY DAYS!!!!!
Thanks everyone
Harlan (Tim)
Anywhohow.Wha huh? yeah, so I did a lengthy search for this aspect throughout the forum and came up empty, so I shall ask the big question, gently.
I am leaning towards the EL34, but alternate options are the the 6L6 line, the 807 (glorified 6L6) 811 or the 813. (open to other thoughts on this)
So here is my question and it is strictly in the sense of the sound output and personal favorites.
Let me predicate this with the difference between amplifier class (SE P-P, A AB etc.) is not the aspect of my question. Removing the differences of the listening room, speakers chosen, amount of light in a room, color of the coffee and all that is not what I am requesting, so not an easy question really. This kinda brings my question to more of "is there a difference audibly between (tubes)?"
Reason I am asking is that I am preparing now to build my life long dream amp so got curious what others really thought!
I should allow one aspect here since how an amp is driven will impact the output sound, so that makes this a complex question. But I need to be fair as well as clear.
Aspects I will be hoping to hear about are "Clarity, Transparency, Dynamics, etc."
I listen to various styles myself, primarily classical, and a lot of modern rock (Pink Floyd, Straits, Clapton) Love the Irish and Celtic tunes, but I demand a lot from the sound what ever it be.
Your input here will be greatly appreciated and once I review the thoughts, I will happy to post the actual build.
I should note here that I will also design the amp circuit if and where at all possible. I will also be winding my own O-T's for this project.
HAPPY DAYS!!!!!
Thanks everyone
Harlan (Tim)
Thank you Ty and MP9 for the replies and thoughts here.
Ty, may I ask why the KT88 over others? I chuckle on someone offers me a case of tubes, any tubes I will gladly accept I suppose your right I should have set this to do a vote but yes, What is your preference is my question. And of course why if you are able to explain that.
MP9: The 45..... oooh that gives me thoughts. are you referring to a SE style on that one and was there something in particular about the 45 that helped it take 1st place.
I forgot to indicate the 300B is one of the prominent candidates here. I have a pair of old old old new stock 71A's, (1941 NIB) but I think they shall become a headphone thingy!
yeah Again and thank you both,
I admit I am anxious to start on this, but many fires yet to put out before punching a chassis.
Tim
Ty, may I ask why the KT88 over others? I chuckle on someone offers me a case of tubes, any tubes I will gladly accept
I suppose your right I should have set this to do a vote but yes, What is your preference is my question. And of course why if you are able to explain that.MP9: The 45..... oooh that gives me thoughts. are you referring to a SE style on that one and was there something in particular about the 45 that helped it take 1st place.
I forgot to indicate the 300B is one of the prominent candidates here. I have a pair of old old old new stock 71A's, (1941 NIB) but I think they shall become a headphone thingy!
yeah Again and thank you both,
I admit I am anxious to start on this, but many fires yet to put out before punching a chassis.
Tim
Yeah ...
KT88, 8 output prs/ 300 watts/ ch PP , a real he man amp, the way they were made when tubes were tubes and men were.. well , you get the idea. These were the last ones i used ..... real power , real tubes, very good sonics....
http://www.experience-electronics.de/englisch/hifi/end_ppp_m_220.htm
KT88, 8 output prs/ 300 watts/ ch PP , a real he man amp, the way they were made when tubes were tubes and men were.. well , you get the idea. These were the last ones i used ..... real power , real tubes, very good sonics....
http://www.experience-electronics.de/englisch/hifi/end_ppp_m_220.htm
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dgta, not to discount the Amp Speaker electrical matching of impedance etc and i'm not a EE or designer also don't have the means to buy into the amp of the month club. However ime, i'll admit a well made amp with quality parts where it counts, whether PP, SET or OTL can sound up there with the best using a variety of different tube types.
I have heard many, had a few in my home and there absolutely are audible differences between tube types. For example, i heard a demonstration SET amp designed and built by Nori Komuro to switch back and forth between NOS Westrex 300B and New Production Westrex 300B with all else being the same and while the source remained in play. And yes there was a audible difference between the two. Both tubes were very good but the old NOS had a definite sound which was well in a word, better.
Tim, i think allot depends on the amp and have heard expensive exceptions but ime with the modest Amps that passed thru my hands the SET / 300B was either lush and romantic with so so bass or good base at the expense of midrange lushness. With my modest gear the SET / 45 has been able to pull off both and still have something left on top. Of course some things can change with different speakers etc and there really is no "best", it comes down to how and what we listen to, what we respond positively to, personal preference.
I have heard many, had a few in my home and there absolutely are audible differences between tube types. For example, i heard a demonstration SET amp designed and built by Nori Komuro to switch back and forth between NOS Westrex 300B and New Production Westrex 300B with all else being the same and while the source remained in play. And yes there was a audible difference between the two. Both tubes were very good but the old NOS had a definite sound which was well in a word, better.
Tim, i think allot depends on the amp and have heard expensive exceptions but ime with the modest Amps that passed thru my hands the SET / 300B was either lush and romantic with so so bass or good base at the expense of midrange lushness. With my modest gear the SET / 45 has been able to pull off both and still have something left on top. Of course some things can change with different speakers etc and there really is no "best", it comes down to how and what we listen to, what we respond positively to, personal preference.
Execution and all the other details of the amp are really more important than the output tube. I've heard lots of good amps with a wide range of output tubes. More important than the output tube are the OPTs and the quality of the power supply.
dgta, it is pretty easy to hear differences between amps with even a modest (but well executed speaker). It is important that synergy exists between the speaker & the amp. I value a quality front end & amplifier, it gives all my speakers a chance to sound great. Having a really nice room doesn't hurt.
mp9's list is an illustration of the generalization that it is easier to get a less powerful amp to sound better.
And if you have to get an amp as mr wayne describes, i'd be looking for different speakers.
dave
dgta, it is pretty easy to hear differences between amps with even a modest (but well executed speaker). It is important that synergy exists between the speaker & the amp. I value a quality front end & amplifier, it gives all my speakers a chance to sound great. Having a really nice room doesn't hurt.
mp9's list is an illustration of the generalization that it is easier to get a less powerful amp to sound better.
And if you have to get an amp as mr wayne describes, i'd be looking for different speakers.
dave
If you have 71A you are on your way to an all-DHT input section. Get a pair of 26 to put in front of them and read the "26 pre amp" thread which will tell you everything about constructing with DHTs - what filament supplies, where to get them, transformer coupling, battery grid bias, filament bias on the 26 etc etc.
The input tubes are AT LEAST as important as the outputs. I personally don't call an amp with 300b outputs a "DHT amp" - you need DHTs all through for that. In fact I'm thinking of matching a DHT input section to a solid state output section with some of the new Semisouth devices which are causing a buzz. My 300b amp won't quite drive my Mark Audio Alpair 10 speakers, which I love. I could run the 300b hotter or in PP but frankly a really good ss output section is starting to look very appealing. Not least because the cost of electricity is shooting up if you leave your amp on a lot. Mind, ss devices in class A get hot too!
andy
The input tubes are AT LEAST as important as the outputs. I personally don't call an amp with 300b outputs a "DHT amp" - you need DHTs all through for that. In fact I'm thinking of matching a DHT input section to a solid state output section with some of the new Semisouth devices which are causing a buzz. My 300b amp won't quite drive my Mark Audio Alpair 10 speakers, which I love. I could run the 300b hotter or in PP but frankly a really good ss output section is starting to look very appealing. Not least because the cost of electricity is shooting up if you leave your amp on a lot. Mind, ss devices in class A get hot too!
andy
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You may hear a difference between valves in an amp with little or no global negative feedback, such as a typical SET. There you really are listening to the valves. This is likely to be fussy about speakers too, as it will have little electrical damping.
You may hear a small difference when swapping valves in a P-P amp with negative feedback, especially if the amp is designed for one type and you put in something rather different. The valves which sound 'best' are not necessarily any better, just a better match for that particular circuit. It could even be that they are a worse match, but happen to produce a sound which you prefer. However, with many P-P amps you are actually listening to the circuit, not the valves. With a well-designed circuit you might even end up listening to the music.
You may hear a small difference when swapping valves in a P-P amp with negative feedback, especially if the amp is designed for one type and you put in something rather different. The valves which sound 'best' are not necessarily any better, just a better match for that particular circuit. It could even be that they are a worse match, but happen to produce a sound which you prefer. However, with many P-P amps you are actually listening to the circuit, not the valves. With a well-designed circuit you might even end up listening to the music.
I'll agree with DF96, and although I don't have enough experience to choose A tube as I am still enjoying experimenting with the various ones I have on hand, I will offer my slant on the subject.
I have heard a difference between different manufacturers of the same tube. This is not surprising since the manufacturing process effects tube performance. Different manufacturers use different equipment and different processes to produce similar tubes of the same nomenclature (and possibly even the same manufacturer may do this over a long time period due to upgrades in equipment, etc). Hence there is a preference for specific variance of certain tubes from one manufacturer or another.
A gross example is to compare different tubes with similar characteristics and look at the distortion profile. (See "SPECTRA" by Eugene Karpov for a good example)
Unless one builds a high GNFB amp which produces a sterile profile, the tube distortion characteristics will color the amplification and sound reproduction.
It therefore follows that for most amps, each tube type will have a different 'sound' and even tubes of the same type from various manufacturere, as well as the same manufacturer over time will have their own sound profile.
Complicate this by the fact that our preferences change over time and it becomes very difficult for me to decide on a single tube type.
An additional twist is the fact that our hearing 'learns' over time. An example of this is an experience I had in college. My stereo at the time was a Gerard 95B turntable, Panasonic receiver and Kenwood KL-5050 speakers. Sound quality was fair and I was satisfied with it. I moved ifrom tech school to college and moved in with a friend who had a better stereo (Crown DC-150A, Klipsch Heresy, Nacamichi tape deck, etc). So I did not unpack mine. At the end of the semester he went home for the summer and I stayed to continue going to school during the summer.
When I set my stereo back up I couldn't believe how shitty it sounded. I could hear all kinds of distortion I had not noticed previously. Not only was I able to hear it, but I could identify much of it, and the source (the speakers were the only deicent component of my system, and I still have them).
This phenominon may in fact be part of the "breaking in" period experienced by people with some component changes.
I have heard a difference between different manufacturers of the same tube. This is not surprising since the manufacturing process effects tube performance. Different manufacturers use different equipment and different processes to produce similar tubes of the same nomenclature (and possibly even the same manufacturer may do this over a long time period due to upgrades in equipment, etc). Hence there is a preference for specific variance of certain tubes from one manufacturer or another.
A gross example is to compare different tubes with similar characteristics and look at the distortion profile. (See "SPECTRA" by Eugene Karpov for a good example)
Unless one builds a high GNFB amp which produces a sterile profile, the tube distortion characteristics will color the amplification and sound reproduction.
It therefore follows that for most amps, each tube type will have a different 'sound' and even tubes of the same type from various manufacturere, as well as the same manufacturer over time will have their own sound profile.
Complicate this by the fact that our preferences change over time and it becomes very difficult for me to decide on a single tube type.
An additional twist is the fact that our hearing 'learns' over time. An example of this is an experience I had in college. My stereo at the time was a Gerard 95B turntable, Panasonic receiver and Kenwood KL-5050 speakers. Sound quality was fair and I was satisfied with it. I moved ifrom tech school to college and moved in with a friend who had a better stereo (Crown DC-150A, Klipsch Heresy, Nacamichi tape deck, etc). So I did not unpack mine. At the end of the semester he went home for the summer and I stayed to continue going to school during the summer.
When I set my stereo back up I couldn't believe how shitty it sounded. I could hear all kinds of distortion I had not noticed previously. Not only was I able to hear it, but I could identify much of it, and the source (the speakers were the only deicent component of my system, and I still have them).
This phenominon may in fact be part of the "breaking in" period experienced by people with some component changes.
Man! I must be a wiedo, I can hear differences with valves, caps, and even resistors most of the time... and I even heard a big! difference when a series of three connected resistors were turned round to the opposite way in the same circuit position, and I was not alone
I heard a big difference in sound from my amp changing from Aerovox power caps to Mundorf M-litic HV caps.
*shrug*
I heard a big difference in sound from my amp changing from Aerovox power caps to Mundorf M-litic HV caps.
*shrug*
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Don't discount unmatched volume levels, visual bias, placebo and preconceived notions.Man! I must be a wiedo, I can hear differences with valves, caps, and even resistors most of the time... and I even heard a big! difference when a series of three connected resistors were turned round to the opposite way in the same circuit position, and I was not alone
I heard a big difference in sound from my amp changing from Aerovox power caps to Mundorf M-litic HV caps.
*shrug*
Oh a biteDon't discount unmatched volume levels, visual bias, placebo and preconceived notions.
LOL, I was actually being truthful.
There are a number of reasons why some people hear differences to a larger degree than other, some lay with the system/components in the system, for instance speakers that are accurate will convey the sound of what is feeding them faithfully, and an amp circuit can be very sensitive to changes and be very relieving of those changes, then if you have both of those?
And then there is an article over here that can also explain some other aspects of the why's, but it does not negate the system aspects. Are You a Sharpener or a Leveler? | Stereophile.com
I believe some folk don't hear changes, or often for one or both of the above reasons and I don't try to sway them otherwise, but this post is just to maybe inspire a little thought on the why's rather than just denying that some do hear differences that are real.
There are a number of reasons why some people hear differences to a larger degree than other, some lay with the system/components in the system, for instance speakers that are accurate will convey the sound of what is feeding them faithfully, and an amp circuit can be very sensitive to changes and be very relieving of those changes, then if you have both of those?
And then there is an article over here that can also explain some other aspects of the why's, but it does not negate the system aspects. Are You a Sharpener or a Leveler? | Stereophile.com
I believe some folk don't hear changes, or often for one or both of the above reasons and I don't try to sway them otherwise, but this post is just to maybe inspire a little thought on the why's rather than just denying that some do hear differences that are real.
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Psychology started in the 1860s with experiments on thresholds or perception, and found we can distinguish very fine differences. Later it researched the placebo effect and found we can be fooled to a great extent.
I think of myself as able to pick up tiny differences on the one hand, but on the other I once failed to tell any difference in a blind test between a CD and an LP front end. There you go!
Andy
I think of myself as able to pick up tiny differences on the one hand, but on the other I once failed to tell any difference in a blind test between a CD and an LP front end. There you go!
Andy
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