Hello all!
I have done as many searches as I could but still have a question I would like your opinions on.
I have decided to try tube gear as a new way to listen to my music. Since I like projects I was drawn to the Bottlehead DIY kits. Specifically the Foreplay and the Paramour monoblocks. I have read that the Foreplay gets great reviews.
My question is this; for the money are the better deals as far as sound? For instance how does this compare to the ASL WAVE AV20 at the same price point. Or the ASL Wave AV8 at a cheaper price point. Any others.
While the project nature is a definite plus, i want to make sure I get the best sound for that amount of money. At $750-800, would an intergrated tube amp do better?
I realize that I am talking peanuts as far as tube gear is concerned but its a first step into this area. Besides in this hobby an upgrade is always just around the corner anyway.
i will be using Klipsch Reference Series at a 96db sens. so low watts should not be an issue. Not to mention I don't need ear splitting volume since I never listen at that level anyway.
Also could someone point me to a good site that explains the difference between SET and PP, and the tube desigations. I have learned a little about that by reading and searching the archives but still would like to know more.
Derek N
I have done as many searches as I could but still have a question I would like your opinions on.
I have decided to try tube gear as a new way to listen to my music. Since I like projects I was drawn to the Bottlehead DIY kits. Specifically the Foreplay and the Paramour monoblocks. I have read that the Foreplay gets great reviews.
My question is this; for the money are the better deals as far as sound? For instance how does this compare to the ASL WAVE AV20 at the same price point. Or the ASL Wave AV8 at a cheaper price point. Any others.
While the project nature is a definite plus, i want to make sure I get the best sound for that amount of money. At $750-800, would an intergrated tube amp do better?
I realize that I am talking peanuts as far as tube gear is concerned but its a first step into this area. Besides in this hobby an upgrade is always just around the corner anyway.
i will be using Klipsch Reference Series at a 96db sens. so low watts should not be an issue. Not to mention I don't need ear splitting volume since I never listen at that level anyway.
Also could someone point me to a good site that explains the difference between SET and PP, and the tube desigations. I have learned a little about that by reading and searching the archives but still would like to know more.
Derek N
for much less money (around $200 to $400) you can pick up some excellent vintage push pull amplifiers / integrateds on ebay ..dynaco 70, pilot, eico .... come to mind.
not much vintage single ened stuff
if you intend to go the diy route (either SE or push-pull), .. there should be plenty of information on this site and others
some sites:
http://www.tubecad.com/articles_2003/Grounded_Cathode_Amplifier/Grounded_Cathode_Amplifier.pdf
http://www.boozhoundlabs.com/
not much vintage single ened stuff
if you intend to go the diy route (either SE or push-pull), .. there should be plenty of information on this site and others
some sites:
http://www.tubecad.com/articles_2003/Grounded_Cathode_Amplifier/Grounded_Cathode_Amplifier.pdf
http://www.boozhoundlabs.com/
Welcome to the forum, Derek N!
Rather than spending lots of money immediately, you might prefer to buy a a cheap vintage amplifier, and tinker with it to learn, then spend serious money when you have more knowledge. I don't know what the sources are where you are, but I find that the free ads section in the local paper is the cheapest place for old amplifiers, and amateur radio fairs are also a good place. Practice indrawn hissing breath between your teeth combined with sorrowful shaking of the head as a negotiating skill.
Rather than spending lots of money immediately, you might prefer to buy a a cheap vintage amplifier, and tinker with it to learn, then spend serious money when you have more knowledge. I don't know what the sources are where you are, but I find that the free ads section in the local paper is the cheapest place for old amplifiers, and amateur radio fairs are also a good place. Practice indrawn hissing breath between your teeth combined with sorrowful shaking of the head as a negotiating skill.
I'll put in a word for the Bottlehead Foreplay. That was my first DIY experience, and it was a lot of fun. Unless you're confident that the vintage amp is working, I'm not sure if debugging a (possibly) complex circuit is the best way to get started on this hobby. The Foreplay costs $150, is easy to build, and sounds satisfyingly very good (especially if your past experience has only been with consumer grade mid-fi). I've also owned the AV8s (just sold my pair, actually), and I think they're great amps for the price. I think the Paramour would be a better amp (haven't heard them), but your choice of speakers becomes much more restricted with 3.5W than with 8-10W.
Based on the path I've followed so far, I think it's a pretty good idea to start with a decent kit or two, and then go on to scratch-building stuff from someone else's design, and then finally try designing your own. And definitely buy some books and study them if you're not very knowledgable about electronics. I found Morgan Jones' "Valve Amplifiers" to be excellent. There are other books that are often recommended for beginners. And finally, don't forget that you'll also have to set aside a budget for tools. Probably a digital multimeter, decent soldering iron, and pliers/wire-cutters etc. for starters, then maybe move on to more sophisticated tools depending on your continued level of interest in the hobby.
Hope that helps.
Saurav
Based on the path I've followed so far, I think it's a pretty good idea to start with a decent kit or two, and then go on to scratch-building stuff from someone else's design, and then finally try designing your own. And definitely buy some books and study them if you're not very knowledgable about electronics. I found Morgan Jones' "Valve Amplifiers" to be excellent. There are other books that are often recommended for beginners. And finally, don't forget that you'll also have to set aside a budget for tools. Probably a digital multimeter, decent soldering iron, and pliers/wire-cutters etc. for starters, then maybe move on to more sophisticated tools depending on your continued level of interest in the hobby.
Hope that helps.
Saurav
If you are looking at the Bottlehead stuff, you should also have a look at the DecWare stuff. The ZENs go head to head with the Paramours (haven't had a direct shoot-out, but they are both quite good), and they have just introduced a new plate pre-amp to go head to head with the Foreplay in the marketplace -- 6N1P instead of ECC81/12AU7 and a seriously larger power transformer (the ForePlay's is very small) with tube rectification -- all things that should give it a performance edge over the Foreplay.
dave
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dave
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I would highly recommend the Bottlehead products. My reason is two fold. If you are going to build a set of amps and a preamp having never done so before then the Bottlehead forum is an invaluable asset. Also the prices are reasonable and the performance, from what I hear, is way ahead of their pricetags.
G
G
Thanks for all the replies guys.
Planet10; I had a look at the Decware site and they had some nice items. The plate preamp certainly looks impressive (admittedly I am basing this on more tubes and a much bigger transformer). I do know that the power supply makes a big difference and I am guessing more tubes equals more refinement of the sound?
This also brings up another question. The Model SE84-CS is also in this price range and would not require a pre-amp. How does a stereo amp such as this compare to the bottlehead combo or the ZEN preamp - Paramour monos combo?
Am I thinking in the right direction considering my approx. $750 budget.
I do realize that with that budget a lot of vintage gear would be available but I simply don't have the knowledge to trouble shoot yet.
Derek N
Planet10; I had a look at the Decware site and they had some nice items. The plate preamp certainly looks impressive (admittedly I am basing this on more tubes and a much bigger transformer). I do know that the power supply makes a big difference and I am guessing more tubes equals more refinement of the sound?
This also brings up another question. The Model SE84-CS is also in this price range and would not require a pre-amp. How does a stereo amp such as this compare to the bottlehead combo or the ZEN preamp - Paramour monos combo?
Am I thinking in the right direction considering my approx. $750 budget.
I do realize that with that budget a lot of vintage gear would be available but I simply don't have the knowledge to trouble shoot yet.
Derek N
Derek N said:
My one caveat about the plate pre is that it parallels the dual triode sections, but Steve commonly ignores "common wisdom" and gets away with it, so who knows.
I haven't heard the integrated, but AFAIK all the products are quite similar in execution, so i expect it would be as good a kit as the Selects i have heard.
And Decware also has a very good supoort forum ...
dave
Another alternative
Would be the s5 amp from Geo. Fathauer for $140 -
http://www.s5electronics.com/gpage1.html
I have a friend who bought one of these last year and has had a great time reworking the PS, upgrading resistors and caps, etc. - really learning what sounds better and worse. The difference adding some chokes to the PS made was startling.
All of these budget amps have compromises - but at least with tubes you have a fighting chance of getting music out of them as you go.
I also got started on this path with a Bottlehead Foreplay, and it has turned into a great hobby. No regrets at all. The thing about starting with a kit is you will build confidence and have some debug support should you run into a problem. Folks are very helpful at Bottlehead and Decware.
FYI, buying a vintage amp can also be troublesome - having a little experience really helps with reading tubes, checking voltages, and avoiding singe marks on your fingers.
Happy soldering/pRC
Would be the s5 amp from Geo. Fathauer for $140 -
http://www.s5electronics.com/gpage1.html
I have a friend who bought one of these last year and has had a great time reworking the PS, upgrading resistors and caps, etc. - really learning what sounds better and worse. The difference adding some chokes to the PS made was startling.
All of these budget amps have compromises - but at least with tubes you have a fighting chance of getting music out of them as you go.
I also got started on this path with a Bottlehead Foreplay, and it has turned into a great hobby. No regrets at all. The thing about starting with a kit is you will build confidence and have some debug support should you run into a problem. Folks are very helpful at Bottlehead and Decware.
FYI, buying a vintage amp can also be troublesome - having a little experience really helps with reading tubes, checking voltages, and avoiding singe marks on your fingers.
Happy soldering/pRC
S5 sound
Well, the stock unit is OK - probably better than it should sound for that kind of money. About 8 watts out. Neutral signature. Amazing for some TV tubes and el cheapo output iron, clever design. The PP output tranny cancels most of the PS noise by nature, and the signal section is decoupled (see below) with more filtration.
It's not as good as a Monarchy Audio SM70 (SE MOSFET amp), but certainly close. Way better than a typical mass-market SS receiver.
Steve replaced the resistors first (Kiwame I believe) - not that much difference. Coupling cap replacement made things a bit more dynamic, more drive.
Chokes in the PS and replacing the resistors in the decoupling stage (was 2.2kohm/22uf) made a BIG difference - more juicy overall, toe-tapping, more listenable. Using Solen film caps for decoupling helped more. Replacing the diode bridge with UF4007 and a RRSF (Buddha-style reverse recovery spike filter) helped too.
The circuit uses feedback, and that can be fun to alter as well (wait until after the PS is cleaned up).
Caveats on this kit - the thing is built on a printed circuit board (PCB) so mods are not always easy. Steve ended up mouning his on a maple cutting board with a big square hole underneath to access the bottom of the PCB. And the tubes run hot. Some online users have complained that the sockets get brown and brittle from the heat.
The tubes used are 11MS8 TV tubes - 9 pin novar base - indirectly heated with a triode signal section and a tetrode power section. Tubes are plentiful and cheap in this type, so you can buy a bunch and sort them using the amp as a tester on a rainy afternoon with a multimeter and a pad of paper.
Is this helping? or confusing?
/pRC
Well, the stock unit is OK - probably better than it should sound for that kind of money. About 8 watts out. Neutral signature. Amazing for some TV tubes and el cheapo output iron, clever design. The PP output tranny cancels most of the PS noise by nature, and the signal section is decoupled (see below) with more filtration.
It's not as good as a Monarchy Audio SM70 (SE MOSFET amp), but certainly close. Way better than a typical mass-market SS receiver.
Steve replaced the resistors first (Kiwame I believe) - not that much difference. Coupling cap replacement made things a bit more dynamic, more drive.
Chokes in the PS and replacing the resistors in the decoupling stage (was 2.2kohm/22uf) made a BIG difference - more juicy overall, toe-tapping, more listenable. Using Solen film caps for decoupling helped more. Replacing the diode bridge with UF4007 and a RRSF (Buddha-style reverse recovery spike filter) helped too.
The circuit uses feedback, and that can be fun to alter as well (wait until after the PS is cleaned up).
Caveats on this kit - the thing is built on a printed circuit board (PCB) so mods are not always easy. Steve ended up mouning his on a maple cutting board with a big square hole underneath to access the bottom of the PCB. And the tubes run hot. Some online users have complained that the sockets get brown and brittle from the heat.
The tubes used are 11MS8 TV tubes - 9 pin novar base - indirectly heated with a triode signal section and a tetrode power section. Tubes are plentiful and cheap in this type, so you can buy a bunch and sort them using the amp as a tester on a rainy afternoon with a multimeter and a pad of paper.
Is this helping? or confusing?
/pRC
Re: S5 sound
Helping, for sure. I was considering buying one of these a month or two ago for use in my bedroom system, but kinda backed off after I couldn't find much in the way of reputable praise for it (the "goodbye Krell, hello S5!" I found on one site seemed particularly dubious).pRC said:
Thanks again guys!
Of course at this point I am even more confused as to how to best spend my limited budget!!
I also looked at the nOrh SE 9 which seems like a nice amp. I certainly realize this in not a kit (and this is a DIY forum) but need to ask the question in my coming to a decision. This seems like a good way to try tubes.
How would it sound compared to the bottlehead combo or the Decware 84-cs run as a integrated amp.
Also the nOrh seems to be a pent. wired into triad. HOw does this affect tube rolling, is it still possible by simply plugging in different tubes.
Of course at this point I am even more confused as to how to best spend my limited budget!!
I also looked at the nOrh SE 9 which seems like a nice amp. I certainly realize this in not a kit (and this is a DIY forum) but need to ask the question in my coming to a decision. This seems like a good way to try tubes.
How would it sound compared to the bottlehead combo or the Decware 84-cs run as a integrated amp.
Also the nOrh seems to be a pent. wired into triad. HOw does this affect tube rolling, is it still possible by simply plugging in different tubes.
If you want to try tube audio on the cheap to see if you like it try to find something on ebay such as the amp in the link below ( no affiliation with seller). Just go to ebay. go to the audio components section and run a search for "tube". You will come up with a lot of hits. Or just go to ebay and run a search for "single ended tube" if you are looking specifically for a single ended amp. You should be able to get the amp in the link for about 200.00 - 250.00 dollars. Good luck.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3044410929&category=14978
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3044410929&category=14978
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