phase splitter issue
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 17th May 2011, 05:47 AM #1 grungeman91 diyAudio Member   Join Date: Aug 2010 phase splitter issue Has anyone ever built a concertina phase splitter and have the signal be perfectly split but they differed in amplitude?
ChrisA
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
 Originally Posted by grungeman91 Has anyone ever built a concertina phase splitter and have the signal be perfectly split but they differed in amplitude?
If the outputs are not balanced then my guess is at least one of the following:
1. The loads being driven are not the same or,
2. You are over driving the phase splitter to clipping

 17th May 2011, 06:38 AM #3 kenpeter   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dallas Ideal cathode bias would be at 1/4 B+, for maximum headroom on both ends... 1/3 is often preferred, I'm not sure why... (same idle voltage drop across both triodes of a twin?). If input ever exceeds B+/2, the concertina becomes forward biased diodes to both the plate and the grid. Both ends locked together travel in same phase... Whatever's driving a concertina usually can't supply DC current, so both ends will not travel together far beyond that collision... Bias at B+/2 or higher would be a huge mistake. I still see it often drawn that way. Last edited by kenpeter; 17th May 2011 at 06:40 AM.
artosalo
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
 Has anyone ever built a concertina phase splitter and have the signal be perfectly split but they differed in amplitude?

The output impedance from cathode is much lower than from anode.
Then, if the load impedance is too low - but equal at both outputs - the output voltages can be different.

What is the load impedance of both outputs ?
And what are the value of anode/cathode resistors ?

 17th May 2011, 09:57 AM #5 DF96   diyAudio Member   Join Date: May 2007 No, the same current flows through both impedances so equal impedance means equal voltage however low that impedance is. The complication is that the impedance includes everything attached, so what looks to be equal may not be. For example, if the anode supply is decoupled and the decoupling cap goes open circuit then the anode load has increased so the voltage will too.
 17th May 2011, 10:17 AM #6 richwalters diyAudio Member     Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Alps:Tube amp designs over 150W, SMPS guru. What impedance probe are you using relative to anode load ? Ideal concertina requirements: Use Lo mu tube, ECC82,6SN7, ECF80 t sect ,7199 t sect and so on. Bias for 0.33 HT volts across tube and equal resistor anode/cathode resistors.
SY
On Hiatus

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
 Originally Posted by artosalo The output impedance from cathode is much lower than from anode.
Not so. Please see my article in Linear Audio which examines this theoretically and experimentally.

If signals are different at cathode and anode, the loads are different. As DF96 points out, the load isn't just the load resistors... One common error is changing the load from one side inadvertently through measurement. To maintain the equal loading, the measurement has to either not perturb the circuit whatsoever (i.e., the measurement device has infinite impedance) or two identical measurement devices be used simultaneously.
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richwalters
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Alps:Tube amp designs over 150W, SMPS guru.
The circuit enclosed using an ECF80 performs the function brilliantly with near equal swing symmetry. Expect 25V+25V rms swing and no excuse for signal voltage discrepancies.

richy
Attached Images
 concertina example.jpg (16.9 KB, 1836 views)

M Gregg
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
Quote:
 Originally Posted by richwalters The circuit enclosed using an ECF80 performs the function brilliantly with near equal swing symmetry. Expect 25V+25V rms swing and no excuse for signal voltage discrepancies. richy
Richy,

Regards
M. Gregg

 17th May 2011, 02:44 PM #10 richwalters diyAudio Member     Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Alps:Tube amp designs over 150W, SMPS guru. Sorry... 33Kto 56K......I've got several thous of these tubes from differing manu's, Aero, Mullard, you name it all with varying current requirements... this supply resistor adjusted to get roughly 95-110V on the anode. The concertina should easily drive an o/p pair to obtain 10-15W class A. A Zobel snubber would be probably required across the 100K 1st stage anode res, je noch design..o/p tranny etc. Good luck richy

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