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Old 10th October 2012, 04:56 PM   #1001
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You are full of assertions with no proof. You've given me no reason to believe your claim. If you expect me to treat it with anything but disdain, you'll provide at least some justification for it.

I say again,

If you can't measure it, how in blazes can you say anything about it? Specifically, what is your basis for claiming that the model of which it is a part of is incorrect? What is your basis for saying it isn't a Cathodyne?
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Old 11th October 2012, 11:40 PM   #1002
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CPaul, if you can't be bothered to find dm6l6.inc model
at Duncan Amps, when I've given a proper page link. How
in blazes can you find time to bother me in PM, whining
that I should email it to you?

I've decided to side with Sy, though he's totally wrong.
Impedance of Cathodyne is now equal. Cause I said so...
This discussion is over.
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Old 12th October 2012, 01:18 PM   #1003
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Well, KenPeter, that's a rational response.

I followed your instructions, repeating what I did before. It still doesn't work. But considering your response here and in your PM, I've lost interest in pursuing the matter. So thank you for your kind considerations. And good luck with your investigations.
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Old 19th October 2012, 04:02 PM   #1004
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I been giving this some thought. I think weíre at the end of the trail. Letís see if we can go out with some clarity.

You know, SY, thereís much we agree on:
Burkhart Vogelís floating source and resistor model gives the right results for time constants (R-C loads) and for voltages (any loads) in a balanced Cathodyne. This model has infinite impedance to ground.
Your model yields the same results, although it has a value of zero for R?, the impedance between the two sources and ground.
R? is both un-measurable and non-functional in a balanced Cathodyne.
We part company, though, when you assert that R? must be zero. That raises some questions:
If R? is unmeasurable, how do you know that it must be zero?
If R? is non-functional, why is its value constrained in any way?
If models with both zero and infinite impedances to ground work, then why canít models with in-between values?
The value of R? is of interest, of course, because the values of Zpg and Zkg depend on it.
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Old 19th October 2012, 05:25 PM   #1005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPaul View Post
We part company, though, when you assert that R? must be zero.
I didn't assert that about the cathodyne; in the cathodyne, it's an arbitrary value so can be set to zero for both calculational convenience and in recognition of how a cathodyne is actually used.

I did assert that about the incorrect models you presented a few posts back. Even with that resistance of zero, those models give totally incorrect results (my first reaction that with R = 0 your model worked did not bear up to a second, closer look at your circuits, I skimmed over them too quickly, my apologies).
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Old 19th October 2012, 05:41 PM   #1006
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Quote:
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I didn't assert that about the cathodyne; in the cathodyne, it's an arbitrary value so can be set to zero for both calculational convenience and in recognition of how a cathodyne is actually used.
Excellent. So then R? needn't be zero in model of a balanced Cathodyne. Therefore, the values of Zpg and Zkg for a balanced Cathodyne cannot be inferred from your model, since the selection of a value for R? is arbitrary.
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Old 19th October 2012, 06:24 PM   #1007
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Well, it depends on the model. The ones you posted were wrong and give incorrect results, so the question of R? (whatever it is) is meaningless.

For my model, which DOES give correct results, you can certainly take a resistor between two equipotential points and have it be any arbitrary value- but that's just unremarkably Ohm's law and is true for any circuit. Vogel implicitly recognized this.
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Old 19th October 2012, 06:34 PM   #1008
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I'm not going to get off topic and discuss whether you think what I posted was wrong, especially since you haven't even said why you think it was wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
For my model, which DOES give correct results, you can certainly take a resistor between two equipotential points and have it be any arbitrary value- but that's just unremarkably Ohm's law and is true for any circuit. Vogel implicitly recognized this.
So the zero ohm resistor in your model between two sources and ground can be any value, since it is "arbitrary", "non-functional" and "unmeasurable" in a balanced Cathodyne. You chose zero; Vogel, infinity.

Therefore Zpg and Zkg, which directly depend on this resistance, cannot be determined from your model and cannot be measured in a balanced Cathodyne.
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Old 19th October 2012, 07:00 PM   #1009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPaul View Post

Therefore Zpg and Zkg, which directly depend on this resistance, cannot be determined from your model and cannot be measured in a balanced Cathodyne.
Of course they can, and they were- read the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPaul View Post
So the zero ohm resistor in your model between two sources and ground can be any value, since it is "arbitrary", "non-functional" and "unmeasurable" in a balanced Cathodyne.
Not in a correct model, no, that will change the result. But you can put a nonfunctional resistor in any model of anything and then think you've discovered something wonderful because its value doesn't matter. That's your choice, don't attribute it to me.
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Old 19th October 2012, 07:26 PM   #1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Of course they can, and they were- read the article.
I read it. Good data; wrong conclusions. Because as we've agreed, no measurements of a balanced Cathodyne can confirm any value of R? - even that there is a short between the sources and ground. You are essentially arguing that since your model is in accord with what you can measure, the model is correct even in things you can't. Clearly, this is bad logic. So what is your basis for the conclusion since it can't be measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Not in a correct model, no, that will change the result. But you can put a nonfunctional resistor in any model of anything and then think you've discovered something wonderful because its value doesn't matter. That's your choice, don't attribute it to me.
You have yet to explain what is incorrect, what is wrong, about anything you call "wrong" and not "correct". Once again, assertions with no justifications. Where are your justifications?

I can take your model, break the short to ground, and add a 10K resistor between the sources and ground. We've already agreed that such a resistor is non-functional, as was the zero ohm short. By the definition of "non-functional", this cannot change the way the model functions. If it functioned before, it'll still function. Where's the "wrong" in that? Please justify your claim.

And since the choice of the resistor value is, as you said, "arbitrary," so are the claims for the resistances which are based on it- Zpg and Zkg.
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