Has anybody ever measured a difference in capacitor parameters before and after this burn-in? If so, what would a plausible explanation of the difference be?
I find myself to be highly skeptical of break-in of electronic components unless there's documented scientific data showing a difference before/after. I would also be rather skeptical of the "engineering" that would have gone into a system that is so sensitive to component drift that break-in would even be relevant.
~Tom
I find myself to be highly skeptical of break-in of electronic components unless there's documented scientific data showing a difference before/after. I would also be rather skeptical of the "engineering" that would have gone into a system that is so sensitive to component drift that break-in would even be relevant.
~Tom
I don't want this to veer off into one of the well traveled debates. For me I'll always heard break in and even manufacturers will state that. I've done audio shows for 25 years and we're always getting gear too close to the show and frantically breaking it in 24 hrs/day. This is sadly typical which is why the last day of all these show - RMAF, CES, etc the rooms sound best the last day because everyone's equipment has had time to break in and settle.
Black Gates take 1000 hours. Well documented and very painful to have to run a piece of gear 24/7 for a month before it sounds great.
But we digress.
Black Gates take 1000 hours. Well documented and very painful to have to run a piece of gear 24/7 for a month before it sounds great.
But we digress.
Some capacitor values change over time from the date they are manufactured, think film caps but my memory is vague at the moment. It is due to the heat involved in manufacturing. The change goes on in an exponential rate, again can't remember exactly (boy am I a lot of help) but most of the change occurs in a time period of 30-60 days. The manufacturers account for this when they make them and by the time the parts get put in a circuit they are pretty much stable.
Some capacitors can have weaker areas between the dielectric and with rated voltage they can short out at this point. They normally have a self-healing function and life goes on after that area is 'fixed'.
As far as burning-in, I have not found any good information on tests done to measure the 'effect'. Have found some interesting tests on different types of capacitors distorting the signal going through them in relation to the polarizing voltage put across them.
Did a search a while back, this combination of words come up with some relevant hits. 'bias voltage capacitor distortion test'
Not an answer to your question but audio capacitor related.
Some capacitors can have weaker areas between the dielectric and with rated voltage they can short out at this point. They normally have a self-healing function and life goes on after that area is 'fixed'.
As far as burning-in, I have not found any good information on tests done to measure the 'effect'. Have found some interesting tests on different types of capacitors distorting the signal going through them in relation to the polarizing voltage put across them.
Did a search a while back, this combination of words come up with some relevant hits. 'bias voltage capacitor distortion test'
Not an answer to your question but audio capacitor related.
Cap makers have internal memos and data and it is well known the effects of break-in....
You need to understand the chemistry and physics of the dielectric and it's behavior in electric fields... AC and DC and at different temperatures...
You can use a network analyzer to see the caps curvature....before and after break-in...there is a difference and this complex plot can be electricaly modeled...
Nobody is going to hand you data....You will need to get off the couch and do the characterizations yourself....
cerrem
You need to understand the chemistry and physics of the dielectric and it's behavior in electric fields... AC and DC and at different temperatures...
You can use a network analyzer to see the caps curvature....before and after break-in...there is a difference and this complex plot can be electricaly modeled...
Nobody is going to hand you data....You will need to get off the couch and do the characterizations yourself....
cerrem
Let's keep it pleasant, please
Yeah - why would that be I wonder?
Or alternatively, you are too knackered to care or remember what it sounded like three days earlier...
says who? Where is the data? And when then is the manufacturers do it before sale?
But we digress.
No, its the core of the request - to first give any advice you have to buy into the whole fallacy.
I guess that the ONLY area the discussion makes sense is in electrolytics, and even then any handwaving over 100 hours (let alone 1,000) of break-in is, well, onanism of the first order.
having said that, it seems pretty obvious - if you buy into it, just set up a proxy of the circuit and put your DUT in it... for as long as you see fit.
But for the sake of science, do a before and after test on the parameters you are concerned about if only so you can call me a loser afterward!
But for the sake of science, do a before and after test on the parameters you are concerned about if only so you can call me a loser afterward!
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Just a thought,
If we assume that we can break in a capacitor<<just being politically correct.
Then I would think that a sweep generator across the frequency band for audio with sufficient current drive should do it. Perhaps you would have to experiment with reversing the cap every so many hours.
Its interesting that some rechargeable batteries get a "memory" that stops them charging." Just a comment".
However as soon as you solder it in you will have to break in the connection.
Regards
M. Gregg
If we assume that we can break in a capacitor<<just being politically correct.
Then I would think that a sweep generator across the frequency band for audio with sufficient current drive should do it. Perhaps you would have to experiment with reversing the cap every so many hours.
Its interesting that some rechargeable batteries get a "memory" that stops them charging." Just a comment".
However as soon as you solder it in you will have to break in the connection.
Regards
M. Gregg
The batteries are Nickel Cadnium, and the process is electrochemecial and easy to explain.
AL electrolytics have degeneration of the oxide which will heal over time if it does not degrade to far, so I can see a break in of them (capacitance increases over time and can be measured).
Beyond those two, I'm rather skeptical. I've read some explainations regarding surface oxidation of the foil in capacitors that may or may not be true. Again, those changes should be measurable.
AL electrolytics have degeneration of the oxide which will heal over time if it does not degrade to far, so I can see a break in of them (capacitance increases over time and can be measured).
Beyond those two, I'm rather skeptical. I've read some explainations regarding surface oxidation of the foil in capacitors that may or may not be true. Again, those changes should be measurable.
There are some vague similarities between a rechargeable battery and an electrolytic cap. There are few similarities between these and other caps. If there really is a 'running in' mechanism, then there probably ought to be a corresponding 'wear out' mechanism. There are for electrolytics (drying out, oxide layer degrading), and paper caps (water gets in). Not for others? Therefore, unlikely to be a need for running in caps. Valves maybe, due to gettering action.
On the other hand, there is a well known mechanism by which our brain gets used to a new situation.
On the other hand, there is a well known mechanism by which our brain gets used to a new situation.
As for the mechanism whereby the brain gets used to a sound over a period of time, i heartily agree with that one, but having used Black Gates a number of times, I don't think that could explain their behaviour. IME, they actually sound pretty ok at first, then they become progessively worse over the next few hours, until it becomes quite a trial to keep the equipment playing. After about 50hours, they are sounding a bit better and they seem to keep on improving up to about 200 hours, albeit slower and slower. I have not experienced any noticeable audible improvement after that. Go ahead, call me unscientific. I am a musician and a music lover, not a scientist, but I have friends who also report the same behaviour of BG's in their equipment.
Exactly. I'd like to pose a new question: "what needs more breaking in, components or your ears?"
If *I* needed to wait 1000hrs before my ears are happy with the sound of my audio system - I would spend the time looking for a new one.
There's a nice checklist on the web, known by the name "Are you a quack?"...
There are so many people in high-end audio that should ask themselves this question 24hrs a day - perhaps some kind of break-in will bring back some sense of reality...
Greetings,
Andreas
There's a nice checklist on the web, known by the name "Are you a quack?"...
There are so many people in high-end audio that should ask themselves this question 24hrs a day - perhaps some kind of break-in will bring back some sense of reality...
Greetings,
Andreas
Absolutely.
Or impedance analyzer. Yep. That's exactly what I want.
This is where we disagree. If this break-in is such a big deal, where are the IEEE research papers on the topic? Clearly, manufacturers and research scientists would be very interested in exploring the effects of component break-in as this could lead to the development of components that did not require such break-in.
I ran a search through IEEExplore and the only article I could come up with was a paper from the 1970'ies that argued that accelerated lifetime testing could weed out defective parts.
But seeing how you won't make your data available, I guess I will have to get off the couch and run a few experiments. Seeing how I have access to NIST calibrated gear at work, it should be fairly trivial to set up an experiment and measure before and after break-in.
I am thinking to try an electrolytic cap, a polypropylene cap, and perhaps a ceramic cap. How should I go about the break-in? Hook them up to 60 Hz from a transformer? Constant DC bias for a month? What's your suggestion? I would hate to spend a month breaking in a capacitor the "wrong way".
~Tom
With new old stock electrolytics you definitely need to re-form the electrolyte if they have been made and then not used for years. Here is how to do this:
http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm
My blog
Consort3′s Blog
http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm
My blog
Consort3′s Blog
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