• WARNING: Tube/Valve amplifiers use potentially LETHAL HIGH VOLTAGES.
    Building, troubleshooting and testing of these amplifiers should only be
    performed by someone who is thoroughly familiar with
    the safety precautions around high voltages.

One more 4P1L SE

I'm sure all this is true. But in my case I'm not interested in soundstage. When I played in orchestras I was in the middle of everything in the bass section, and most of the orchestra was in front of me. When I play in jazz bands I can be anywhere on stage. Wherever I am, it's the instrumental timbre and the transparency I listen for. At home I may be listening half way down the room at 90* to the speakers. I may be listening in bed even. I rarely sit in a "listening position" because I'm usually doing other things at the same time as listening. Plus I'm rarely in the "listening position" at live events - I'm more likely to be on stage.

We all vary in how we listen and what we listen to. Soundstage means nothing to me, but everything to others. I can go into ecstasy over the tone of a Steinway piano, or a particular singer, or brushes on a snare, which is why I use DHTs and nothing else - I get that exquisite tone from them. Other listeners just hear a singer, some drums and a piano.

I understand what you are looking for and you get that as well. The good thing is you are not bound to a listening position as well and the most important thing is that you remove so much "masking" caused by the room that the tone of a Steinway, particular singer, or brushes on a snare are even more intense!
We might get organized and have a short trip to Italy and you will judge by yourself. Don't need to go to my place which would possibly take too long. We can stop in Rome where the "maximum" system conceived this way lives.
We might do it in one day.
 
My dream of building a 4p1l headphone amp is still alive, I would just like someone to take the risk first :drunk: Still worried about microphonics which might be obvious with teeny drivers only an inch away from the ears plus the high sensitivity of Sennheiser headphones.
With phones one can relax a little about microphonics, at least for music feedback. Of course, ambient sounds/noise/rumble/thumps will excite the filaments at times (and with the 'phone usage really one will note this) so is good to at least provide some good heavy stands to put the 'phone amp.
 
I'm sure all this is true. But in my case I'm not interested in soundstage. When I played in orchestras I was in the middle of everything in the bass section, and most of the orchestra was in front of me. When I play in jazz bands I can be anywhere on stage. Wherever I am, it's the instrumental timbre and the transparency I listen for. At home I may be listening half way down the room at 90* to the speakers. I may be listening in bed even. I rarely sit in a "listening position" because I'm usually doing other things at the same time as listening. Plus I'm rarely in the "listening position" at live events - I'm more likely to be on stage.

We all vary in how we listen and what we listen to. Soundstage means nothing to me, but everything to others. I can go into ecstasy over the tone of a Steinway piano, or a particular singer, or brushes on a snare, which is why I use DHTs and nothing else - I get that exquisite tone from them. Other listeners just hear a singer, some drums and a piano.
I liked this statement.
This is one of the reasons I chose the route of class A or high bias valved/tubed amps. Also I don't care about soundstage. In real presentations the "soundstage" is very diffuse in most times, in fact... The music itself is what matters most to me. But in my case is not the tone itself, but the "whole" of the music, and this impact. And "electronic" features like harshness in the treble, which is what is what most defines if the electronic circuit survives my demands ... other thing I like very much is live recordings because of the ambiance (reverberations from instruments and "noise" from audience), not because of soundstage or whatever. So I need good realistic less "electronic" definition, and most times tube amps provide this for me.
And as I realized that my perception of distortion is a bit different from the average, I found to like more push-pull amplifiers with lower % of HD, but always with very low/inexistent 6H+. Or also my need for explosive dynamic music calls for more Watts:D:) but not Krell Watts, but the ol' good Tube Watts ;)
I can add here that I've spent a few years listening music in MONO.

Finally, when one are aware of own audio necessities, forget about critics and invest the energy in this! (some will be triode SE, some PP, etc, etc) and several formulas for a grand finale exists.
 
Finally, when one are aware of own audio necessities, forget about critics and invest the energy in this! (some will be triode SE, some PP, etc, etc) and several formulas for a grand finale exists.

Yes. The first, remove most audible distortions. Then remove less audible distortions. Then remove distortions that affect perception revealing that it is a re-production. The result is, despite of beliefs "how it should be made" it sounds REAL! :cool:
 
Hi Hiro,
if you say it is this good then I might build one for myself. I happen to have suitable output transformers (Lundahl LL1627/90mA 2.3K) and some 4P1L's that I bought when prices were really low. Also have the other signal tubes you used. I only need to make a good power transformer and chokes. Possibly at the end of August when I will have good time to work on it.

Thank you for your interest to my 3x4P1L PSE amp.
I am sure it would suit to your expectations.
The basic idea derived was due to an inspiration from the article by Hajime Tatsuguchi
(Japanese) of PX-4, VT-52 and 801A SE amps appeared on the Radio Gijyutu Magazine published in 2004.

Highlights are;
a) Used a surpass power tube 4P1L claimed better linearity in triode connection with no NFB SE.
b) L-C-L-C filter PSU is the best for enhancing sound quality.
c) To increase time constant at the decupling circuit in the output stage (2,200mF).
d) Adding Oil paper or MP condensers to the electrolytic condenser is a valuable solution for enhancing sound quality as for absorber in high order harmonics.
e) Independent PSU for the voltage amplifiers with 3 stage RC filter.
Condensers at final stage must be only 4 or 6 mF MP, not to add electrolytic type.
f) All tube`s heater or filament circuit must be supplied by DC (except rectifier,5R4)
for ultimate ripple removal.
g) As a consequence, the residual noise of 4P1Lx3 stereo amp lowered to 0.07mV/A,
and achieved low distortion as well as wide range for no NFB amp.
 
With phones one can relax a little about microphonics, at least for music feedback. Of course, ambient sounds/noise/rumble/thumps will excite the filaments at times (and with the 'phone usage really one will note this) so is good to at least provide some good heavy stands to put the 'phone amp.

I ended up going with a fairly boring design, 2x 6bl7 in OTL white cathode follower. Much cheaper all around for just office use. I may go down the 4p1l path in the future but it will be considerably more expensive with quality PSU/OPT iron and filament bias kits.
 
Thank you for your interest to my 3x4P1L PSE amp.
I am sure it would suit to your expectations.
The basic idea derived was due to an inspiration from the article by Hajime Tatsuguchi
(Japanese) of PX-4, VT-52 and 801A SE amps appeared on the Radio Gijyutu Magazine published in 2004.

Highlights are;
a) Used a surpass power tube 4P1L claimed better linearity in triode connection with no NFB SE.
b) L-C-L-C filter PSU is the best for enhancing sound quality.
c) To increase time constant at the decupling circuit in the output stage (2,200mF).
d) Adding Oil paper or MP condensers to the electrolytic condenser is a valuable solution for enhancing sound quality as for absorber in high order harmonics.
e) Independent PSU for the voltage amplifiers with 3 stage RC filter.
Condensers at final stage must be only 4 or 6 mF MP, not to add electrolytic type.
f) All tube`s heater or filament circuit must be supplied by DC (except rectifier,5R4)
for ultimate ripple removal.
g) As a consequence, the residual noise of 4P1Lx3 stereo amp lowered to 0.07mV/A,
and achieved low distortion as well as wide range for no NFB amp.

Hi Hiro,
I very much agree with this philosophy and I usually follow most of those principles also in PP amplifiers.
The only thing that I usually don't do is bypass electrolytics. In reality I make a limited use of electrolytics only where high capacitance is required.

I am not aware of the "high order harmonics" absorbing property by using oil or MP caps in parallel to elecrolytics. What does it mean? Are you referring to PSU harmonics?