Output Audio Transformer Impedance
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 30th November 2010, 05:35 AM #1 kawasaki99   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2010 Output Audio Transformer Impedance Is there a standard frequency at which the impedance of an audio output transformers primary winding is stated? I have a Hammond output transformer whose primary winding measures 3.3k @ 100cps, 20k @ 1000cps and 40k @ 10000cps. Regards, Richard
 30th November 2010, 06:45 AM #2 bob91343   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Mar 2010 The primary impedance is NOT the open circuit impedance. It is the loaded impedance, with the secondary having the rated load. Having said that, the 'standard' frequency of measurement is 1 kHz.
SemperFi
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: nowhere
Quote:
 Originally Posted by kawasaki99 Is there a standard frequency at which the impedance of an audio output transformers primary winding is stated? I have a Hammond output transformer whose primary winding measures 3.3k @ 100cps, 20k @ 1000cps and 40k @ 10000cps. Regards, Richard
As mentioned u must test OTs under load. I would think u measure inductance of the primary when it is unloaded.
So since Z of inductance = 2*pi*L*f, u get an inductance of L = Z /(2*pi*f) which gives u 5.3H, 3.2H, and 0.6H at those frequencies. The capacitive part of the OT is obviously taking charge as frequency goes up. Tho I'd think it shouldn't vary as much as this below 1kHz?

Yvesm
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ardeche
Quote:
 Originally Posted by SemperFi . . . Tho I'd think it shouldn't vary as much as this below 1kHz?
The level is also preponderent, most inductance testers (even highly respected and respectable bridge meters) usually give very lo numbers because the iron is unsuficiently "excited".
Above approx 5Khz the iron vanishes

Yves.

 30th November 2010, 11:55 PM #5 kawasaki99   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2010 Thanks for the reply; since a voltage drop measured across a component is, in fact, a measure of inductance, placing a known inductor in the test circuit along side the test component provides a comparsion of the two individual voltage drops providing a good measure of inductance at any particular frequency. Obviously the test circuit must, as closely as possible, reflect the working circuit. The original question still stands: is there a standard test frequency for stated transformer inductance ? Regards, Richard
THD+N
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Orlando, Florida
Quote:
 Originally Posted by kawasaki99 Thanks for the reply; since a voltage drop measured across a component is, in fact, a measure of inductance, placing a known inductor in the test circuit along side the test component provides a comparsion of the two individual voltage drops providing a good measure of inductance at any particular frequency. Obviously the test circuit must, as closely as possible, reflect the working circuit. The original question still stands: is there a standard test frequency for stated transformer inductance ? Regards, Richard
Your original post asks about impedance, but now you are looking for inductance?

I use 1kHz to measure unknown transformers to find the impedance ratio.

 1st December 2010, 12:42 AM #7 Steve Eddy   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Transformers don't have any particular "impedance" per se. What they do is reflect impedances as a square of their turns ratio. Of course the reflected impedance appears in parallel with the primary inductance so you don't want to do your measurements at too low a frequency. 1kHz is about as good a "standard" as any as if it's a decent transformer the reflected impedance shouldn't be too drastically effected by primary inductance. se __________________ The Audio Guild
 1st December 2010, 05:48 AM #8 kawasaki99   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2010 Thanks again, I think I got it. Regards, Richard
 1st December 2010, 06:26 AM #9 BudP   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: upper left crust, united snakes Just a couple of details to make things harder to comprehend... of course! The impedance formula given is correct, for -3 db at the frequency of interest. To achieve -0.1 db at this frequency multiply the derived inductance by 2.76. If you measure with 120Hz @ 1 volt, you will be measuring the core at rest, which is not zero flux but remnant flux, what it will provide with minimum excitation. To understand what happens with more power applied you must have permeability curves and an inductance formula. There are two permeability curves, one for AC signal and one for any core with DC on it and a gap. The impedance of a primary is equal to the inductance of the primary. To match impedance to a tube you need to add the transconductance and turns forced load line in parallel, then add the DCR of the primary in series. This is the number to use to decide if your transformer will match with a tube at the lowest frequency you care about. For E/I commercial grade core the core is all done with power transform, except as a ferrous bounding box for the coil antenna event, from 250 Hz to 400 Hz, core grades M50 to M3 respectively. The capacitive coupling and the direct EMF flux transform from primary to secondary provides everything else.Other metals work at higher frequencies, but there are trade offs to be made when using them so don't assume that the very best core will provide you with what you are looking for, once you decide to move beyond Hammond and EDCOR levels of performance. Not that either of these two have anything to apologize for. Bud __________________ "You and I and every other thing are a dependent arising, empty of any inherent reality" Tsong Ko Pa
 1st December 2010, 06:33 AM #10 Steve Eddy   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Uh... what was that middle part again? se __________________ The Audio Guild

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