The Hammond H-100 organ has a hauntingly beautiful reverb feature that, combined with the "celeste" vibrato, simulates a stone cathedral. When it works. It exports the signal 8v PP to a spring, then brings it back as a 10 mv signal to an EF86 for extensive amplification. Schematic is here. It only works when the tube has been recently rocked in the socket. Socket has been cleaned, tube has been cleaned, I would like to be done with tube rocking and cleaning and push the organ against the wall. My experience indicates that 10 mv signals do not cross tin plated contacts reliably. Tube sockets are tin plated, as are tube pins. So I would like to solder something in this area to boost the signal before tube amplification. Also though the EF86 has it's fans (currently being talked up in "differential amplification" thread) it is $42 each. I would like to get rid of it and replace it with a soldered device, perhaps a FET transistor, or a fet plus a 12AX7 that is easy to buy, or somesuch. Complete Hammond H100 schematic is in an H100 service manual on archive.org, in case I didn't manage the attachment properly. It is schematic sheet 41, in the upper right. The Hammond schematics do not explicitly show how they handle the filament, and although it is obvious by inspection that it is ac, whether the EF86 is 12.6v or 6.3v is a mystery to me. I am afraid to tip the chassis over with the power on. There is 120 VAC running through the chassis, so I could replace the tube socket with a little 12VAC or 24 VAC transformer to generate transistor type voltages. I have 2n7000 Fets left over from another project, also 2n3904's, and tube sockets and 12AX7's. I'm afraid of just soldering to a glass tube, and I would like to keep the 250 VDC below the chassis. As the gain increases and decreases with popping noises, I believe the grids are connecting and disconnecting as I rock the tube. Any comments, advice?
Attachments
Well, congratulations first on your instrument... Funny Boston is plating on the Radio... The B3 plays on silently in the background of "Longtime".
Anyway, I would not recommend soldering on the tube pins itself, you will damage the inside. I do not think it is the socket. IF you do think it is, replace the socket. After all the circuit was meant to work this way.
Here are my suggestions, in order of ease:
-replace EF86 tube
-check phono jack on reverb tank, check all soldering joints on tube socket, I expect something else is loose.
-replace electrolytic capacitors (after nearly forty-five years, they are due)
-replace tube socket.
I wouldn't recommend adding any solid-state amplification, or any amplification, for that matter, it will ruin the originality of your organ and alter the sound. Maybe not drastically, but mixing solid-state and tubes in a vintage organ? nah.
Check Antique Electronic Supply for a new (vintage) tube.
Anyway, I would not recommend soldering on the tube pins itself, you will damage the inside. I do not think it is the socket. IF you do think it is, replace the socket. After all the circuit was meant to work this way.
Here are my suggestions, in order of ease:
-replace EF86 tube
-check phono jack on reverb tank, check all soldering joints on tube socket, I expect something else is loose.
-replace electrolytic capacitors (after nearly forty-five years, they are due)
-replace tube socket.
I wouldn't recommend adding any solid-state amplification, or any amplification, for that matter, it will ruin the originality of your organ and alter the sound. Maybe not drastically, but mixing solid-state and tubes in a vintage organ? nah.
Check Antique Electronic Supply for a new (vintage) tube.
basics
The electrolytic capacitor was changed with a 2006 220 uf 10 wv unit three weeks ago. Every other electrolytic cap in the organ was changed, also. Inspection revealed that the "console-tone cabinet" switch on this unit had never been soldered on the console end, even though a factory tech replaced 3 electrolytics in this chassis in 1977. I saw no other bad joints. Removing the recently sprayed and erased RCA plug and reinstalling it does not change the symptom. Wiggling the trimpot doesn't change the volume much. Rocking the tube does, and changes the volume resulting in 2 discrete steps. H100 organs have a resale value somewhere between $100 and "boat anchor" because, in part, they have enough bass volume to knock the preamp tubes out of the sockets, as well as this tube and the various volume trimpots wipers off the trace. Found a trimpot to be replaced with a soldered resistor on the vibrato chassis today. Reviews on the web of the H100 condemn "bad tube sockets" pretty blatently, although I don't think these sockets are any worse than the ones in my ST70 amp or PAS2 preamp. What is different is the speaker is attached to the amplifier chassis, and one input signal is 10 mv. Antique Electronics Supply, tubesandmore.com, is charging $41 an EF86 and don't even list 7199's or 7591 power tubes. When I can afford $100 in new 450 V caps for my tripplett tube tester, I will test the EF86, but I don't think the tube is at fault. The reason the entire power amp hasn't been pitched and replaced with a couple of surplus car amps is money, plus the amp chassis is "interesting" with the EF86, the 6BQ6's, 7199's, 7591's, expensive coupling transformers, etc. I went to the garage and dug out some RCA 7895 and 7586 "nuvistor's" hoping they were solder in tubes, but they were miniature metal tubes that also require tiny sockets. While I could change out this one socket, I do have a couple of workman's in shrink wrap, I am dubious that a 10 mv dry signal can reliably jump the gap no matter how new the lead tinplate is. Then there is the problem of the 12AX7's in the preamp the get knocked loose. At least, there I have a schematic of the transistor amp that Hammond replaced it with on the H200. Thanks for looking.
The electrolytic capacitor was changed with a 2006 220 uf 10 wv unit three weeks ago. Every other electrolytic cap in the organ was changed, also. Inspection revealed that the "console-tone cabinet" switch on this unit had never been soldered on the console end, even though a factory tech replaced 3 electrolytics in this chassis in 1977. I saw no other bad joints. Removing the recently sprayed and erased RCA plug and reinstalling it does not change the symptom. Wiggling the trimpot doesn't change the volume much. Rocking the tube does, and changes the volume resulting in 2 discrete steps. H100 organs have a resale value somewhere between $100 and "boat anchor" because, in part, they have enough bass volume to knock the preamp tubes out of the sockets, as well as this tube and the various volume trimpots wipers off the trace. Found a trimpot to be replaced with a soldered resistor on the vibrato chassis today. Reviews on the web of the H100 condemn "bad tube sockets" pretty blatently, although I don't think these sockets are any worse than the ones in my ST70 amp or PAS2 preamp. What is different is the speaker is attached to the amplifier chassis, and one input signal is 10 mv. Antique Electronics Supply, tubesandmore.com, is charging $41 an EF86 and don't even list 7199's or 7591 power tubes. When I can afford $100 in new 450 V caps for my tripplett tube tester, I will test the EF86, but I don't think the tube is at fault. The reason the entire power amp hasn't been pitched and replaced with a couple of surplus car amps is money, plus the amp chassis is "interesting" with the EF86, the 6BQ6's, 7199's, 7591's, expensive coupling transformers, etc. I went to the garage and dug out some RCA 7895 and 7586 "nuvistor's" hoping they were solder in tubes, but they were miniature metal tubes that also require tiny sockets. While I could change out this one socket, I do have a couple of workman's in shrink wrap, I am dubious that a 10 mv dry signal can reliably jump the gap no matter how new the lead tinplate is. Then there is the problem of the 12AX7's in the preamp the get knocked loose. At least, there I have a schematic of the transistor amp that Hammond replaced it with on the H200. Thanks for looking.
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This is just nonsense and not science. You do realize that EVERYTHING electronic was made with tubes for the first half of the last century, including phono & mic preamps, test bench equipment, medical devices, and so on. 10mV is no sweat.
The tubes falling out can be fixed with simple spring clamp assemblies that you can get from a variety of sources online. (eBay, AES, New Sensor, etc.)
You can generally find EF86 for a lot less than $40 if you look around. You might find some on eBay, locally at radio shows, and hamfests - both are often a good source for these as well.
Junk tube mobile radios (Motorola taxi and police radios) often found at hamfests may provide tube mounting hardware that will help keep things in place in you errant organ. (And they are usually going super cheap.)
The socket is most likely bad and needs to replaced.
You may have to drill out rivets or resort to other subterfuge to mount the retaining clips, but they will solve the problem of tubes falling out due to vibration.
Leadbelly is correct, probably your issue has to do with a cheap, worn out socket. When looking for a replacement a good gold plated socket may help.
Cleaning the tube pins with a hard eraser or a fine emory board may also help. The tube itself may have an intemittent internal connection that is restored when you futz with it.
You can generally find EF86 for a lot less than $40 if you look around. You might find some on eBay, locally at radio shows, and hamfests - both are often a good source for these as well.
Junk tube mobile radios (Motorola taxi and police radios) often found at hamfests may provide tube mounting hardware that will help keep things in place in you errant organ. (And they are usually going super cheap.)
The socket is most likely bad and needs to replaced.
You may have to drill out rivets or resort to other subterfuge to mount the retaining clips, but they will solve the problem of tubes falling out due to vibration.
Leadbelly is correct, probably your issue has to do with a cheap, worn out socket. When looking for a replacement a good gold plated socket may help.
Cleaning the tube pins with a hard eraser or a fine emory board may also help. The tube itself may have an intemittent internal connection that is restored when you futz with it.
Is the electrical contact potential, which arises when two metals having different work functions are in contact, significant wrt. millivolt level audio signals? What is the difference in work function between the tin-lead plate on a socket barrel and the copper-invar of a miniature tube pin? Isn't it just a tiny DC offset anyway? Isn't it really a battery, not a "diode" as some imply?
Hmmm
I'd replace the socket ;-)
When metallic connections loosen, there is an ohmic range formed by various salts, semiconducting oxides, and tiny metallic cross-sections e.g. tin whiskers. If a semiconductor is involved, these can rectify signals (like the detector in a crystal radio)
A healthy socket connection will make a gas-tight metallic bond that will pass microvolt level signals without distortion.
cheers,
Michael
Ps I don't have that album anymore but I remember some great work on that B3 immediately preceding "Long Time"
Hmmm
I'd replace the socket ;-)
When metallic connections loosen, there is an ohmic range formed by various salts, semiconducting oxides, and tiny metallic cross-sections e.g. tin whiskers. If a semiconductor is involved, these can rectify signals (like the detector in a crystal radio)
A healthy socket connection will make a gas-tight metallic bond that will pass microvolt level signals without distortion.
cheers,
Michael
Ps I don't have that album anymore but I remember some great work on that B3 immediately preceding "Long Time"
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Please dont add solid state. Thats like putting an electric motor in vintage car. Every year we loose a few more of these wonderful instruments. Try to restore it as close to the original as possible. Not ownly for posterity but it will be worth a lot morer $$$ in the long run.
morer?
Well, I didn't want to say it, but he's absolutely right. Once it's modified, it's difficult to put back to its original state.
Anyway, it is your thing. I would definitely replace the socket. I have an old Tektronix 543A that can amplify microvolt signals with ease, so it isn't that the circuit isn't capable or just barely.
If it's the socket, it's loose pins. On most sockets it's possible to tighten the pins by careful poking with the tip of a small screwdriver or needle file. That's easier than replacing the socket - and nobody can accuse you of it not being original.
frustration
Well, I'm pretty frustrated. The reverb was popping in and out tonight as I tried to play it, finally it was popping at 32 hz in sympathy with the low C on the organ. When all the caps were bad and the organ wouldn't play at proper volume, it wasn't much of an issue, but an H should be able to rattle the windows. Mine was that loud for a couple of days, but the bass volume has dropped off, too.These tube sockets are rivited to the chassis, and there are a bunch of grounds that tie into the tube socket, it is not going to be easy to change. I don't know that the odd sockets I have found on surplus tables at supply houses are any good either, just new in shrink wrap. I haven't heard of any hamfests being closer than Dayton, Louisville is not much of a town for electronics. I have the biggest collection of junk I know, and I have never seen a gold tube socket- such a thing would be designed for 10 mv signals. It is not just the 10 mv, it is the level of vibration an H100 will generate when it is working properly. This socket shouldn't be bad, looks like factory service was only in the organ three times since purchase-to replace bad electrolytics twice, and once to clean up after a motor capacitor fire and install 3 wire PVC power cord. The power amp doesn't even sound that good when I put a transistor radio in the RCA jack like they suggest could be done with a record player. It is an 8000 hz limited amp designed for organs, only. There is no feedback around any of the stages. Had any of you pointed out a nice inexpensive 6.3v heater triode designed for soldering in, it would have been really helpful. I think I saw such a thing at Delta Exploration 40 years ago, but never since. You would think the russians would have designed some solder in tubes for high vibration, they were really nuts about tubes because of their EMP resistance
I just dug the Workman HS25 sockets out of the bag. They don't even have steel ears for mounting to the chassis, much less the cool ring around the outside for soldering grounds to. They don't have the spring clips to hold the metal cover down with the Hammond sockets have. Hammond didn't buy cheap parts. I feel like I'll be replacing Oldsmobile sockets with Yugos.
Well, I'm pretty frustrated. The reverb was popping in and out tonight as I tried to play it, finally it was popping at 32 hz in sympathy with the low C on the organ. When all the caps were bad and the organ wouldn't play at proper volume, it wasn't much of an issue, but an H should be able to rattle the windows. Mine was that loud for a couple of days, but the bass volume has dropped off, too.These tube sockets are rivited to the chassis, and there are a bunch of grounds that tie into the tube socket, it is not going to be easy to change. I don't know that the odd sockets I have found on surplus tables at supply houses are any good either, just new in shrink wrap. I haven't heard of any hamfests being closer than Dayton, Louisville is not much of a town for electronics. I have the biggest collection of junk I know, and I have never seen a gold tube socket- such a thing would be designed for 10 mv signals. It is not just the 10 mv, it is the level of vibration an H100 will generate when it is working properly. This socket shouldn't be bad, looks like factory service was only in the organ three times since purchase-to replace bad electrolytics twice, and once to clean up after a motor capacitor fire and install 3 wire PVC power cord. The power amp doesn't even sound that good when I put a transistor radio in the RCA jack like they suggest could be done with a record player. It is an 8000 hz limited amp designed for organs, only. There is no feedback around any of the stages. Had any of you pointed out a nice inexpensive 6.3v heater triode designed for soldering in, it would have been really helpful. I think I saw such a thing at Delta Exploration 40 years ago, but never since. You would think the russians would have designed some solder in tubes for high vibration, they were really nuts about tubes because of their EMP resistance
I just dug the Workman HS25 sockets out of the bag. They don't even have steel ears for mounting to the chassis, much less the cool ring around the outside for soldering grounds to. They don't have the spring clips to hold the metal cover down with the Hammond sockets have. Hammond didn't buy cheap parts. I feel like I'll be replacing Oldsmobile sockets with Yugos.
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less sarcasm, more knowledge
Frankly, sockets and vibration is why both oil exploration and the US military gave them up. Delta was an oil exploration company, who had vibration levels so high the motor mount were breaking out of their trucks and the bodies were falling off in chunks. Their first generation equipment had some tubes in sockets, but they were scrapping that as fast as possible. I thought I saw some tubes that looked like neon bulbs with 4 wires coming out the bottom, 2" leads that could be soldered, but I didn't grab any or catch the number. The US military had an inventory computer when I was in that couldn't be moved, because if you did, everything quit working. I understand it had pcb's in connectors that were loose. When I coordinated a test line at an appliance factory, one shutdown we replaced the edge connectors for the boards that were changed a lot. Instant higher reliability. This new workman socket is garbage, I'll solder the ef86 to a terminal strip before I install that.
Frankly, sockets and vibration is why both oil exploration and the US military gave them up. Delta was an oil exploration company, who had vibration levels so high the motor mount were breaking out of their trucks and the bodies were falling off in chunks. Their first generation equipment had some tubes in sockets, but they were scrapping that as fast as possible. I thought I saw some tubes that looked like neon bulbs with 4 wires coming out the bottom, 2" leads that could be soldered, but I didn't grab any or catch the number. The US military had an inventory computer when I was in that couldn't be moved, because if you did, everything quit working. I understand it had pcb's in connectors that were loose. When I coordinated a test line at an appliance factory, one shutdown we replaced the edge connectors for the boards that were changed a lot. Instant higher reliability. This new workman socket is garbage, I'll solder the ef86 to a terminal strip before I install that.
Hi,
There are good quality sockets out there with gold-plated phosphor bronze screw machine barrels etc.
However, it sounds like you're bound and determined to solder someting in. My go-to subminiature pentode is the 5840 but only because I have 100 of them I bought for a tube microphone project (so I could select the ones that would work with a 50M grid resistor).
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/079/5/5840.pdf
It's not a replacement for the EF86 by any stretch but the circuit voltages might be tweakable if you have the knowledge. Somewhere on this great WWW there is a table of subminiature tubes you could locate and scan for a closer cousin of the EF86 that has a more similar g1g2 mu factor and plate voltage.
You could possibly solder the submini tube to the existing socket pins.
Michael
There are good quality sockets out there with gold-plated phosphor bronze screw machine barrels etc.
However, it sounds like you're bound and determined to solder someting in. My go-to subminiature pentode is the 5840 but only because I have 100 of them I bought for a tube microphone project (so I could select the ones that would work with a 50M grid resistor).
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/079/5/5840.pdf
It's not a replacement for the EF86 by any stretch but the circuit voltages might be tweakable if you have the knowledge. Somewhere on this great WWW there is a table of subminiature tubes you could locate and scan for a closer cousin of the EF86 that has a more similar g1g2 mu factor and plate voltage.
You could possibly solder the submini tube to the existing socket pins.
Michael
solder tubes, phosphor bronze sockets
Thanks, I like both ideas of a solder in 5840 vacuum tube (2" leads according to the datasheet), and phosphor bronze tube sockets. Triodeelectronics has some 5840's at a reasonable price. I can make 160 VDC (max) out of the 250 VDC with a couple of 1/2 watt resistors, no problem. Tubesandmore.com is not listing tube sockets, triodeelectronics.com is listing only a PC mount 9 hole with gold pins, their chassis ring mount socket has no special features listed, although a google search of phosphor bronze leads to triode's Ebay listing where it says "Edisal" brand sockets and again, no material listed. Google is coming back with a lot of patent applications and bourdon tube gages, although page 3 has Bill Turner dialcover.com who is also listing no 9 pin sockets. So, have any of you seen a recent commercial supplier of phsophor bronze 9 pin chassis sockets?- I really like that stuff, extremely springy and non-corrosive.
The Hammond H100 organ produces serious levels of 32 Hz vibration, a musically a great resource but reliability wise a serious problem that makes H100's worth $200 and B3's worth $5000 (because the B3 uses a Leslie for volume). After I replaced the electrolytic caps, I got the music on the rack vibrating 1/8" at the end of one session. It is not quite a bazooka tube setup, but pretty close. Lots of fun playing JS Bach, who was a big fan of the low C pedal, but it is going to take some design upgrade to make it reliable enough to screw the back on and push it against the wall.
Thanks, I like both ideas of a solder in 5840 vacuum tube (2" leads according to the datasheet), and phosphor bronze tube sockets. Triodeelectronics has some 5840's at a reasonable price. I can make 160 VDC (max) out of the 250 VDC with a couple of 1/2 watt resistors, no problem. Tubesandmore.com is not listing tube sockets, triodeelectronics.com is listing only a PC mount 9 hole with gold pins, their chassis ring mount socket has no special features listed, although a google search of phosphor bronze leads to triode's Ebay listing where it says "Edisal" brand sockets and again, no material listed. Google is coming back with a lot of patent applications and bourdon tube gages, although page 3 has Bill Turner dialcover.com who is also listing no 9 pin sockets. So, have any of you seen a recent commercial supplier of phsophor bronze 9 pin chassis sockets?- I really like that stuff, extremely springy and non-corrosive.
The Hammond H100 organ produces serious levels of 32 Hz vibration, a musically a great resource but reliability wise a serious problem that makes H100's worth $200 and B3's worth $5000 (because the B3 uses a Leslie for volume). After I replaced the electrolytic caps, I got the music on the rack vibrating 1/8" at the end of one session. It is not quite a bazooka tube setup, but pretty close. Lots of fun playing JS Bach, who was a big fan of the low C pedal, but it is going to take some design upgrade to make it reliable enough to screw the back on and push it against the wall.
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9 pin gold tube sockets
Okay, Wardsweb has found some 9 pin gold plated tube sockets at Angela.com and posted them on another thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/163525-my-take-modern-st-70-a.html. Thanks to Wardsweb. These are $8 a piece, but with rewiring a 9 pin socket probably taking 2-3 hours, certainly worth a try. I bought 12 new tube sockets from triodeelectronics.com, but they didn't have the gold in a chassis mount socket, only PC board. I bought chassis mount sockets with a ring, not delivered yet so don't know what metal, but no specification usually means tin-lead plate steel. Hammond mounts sockets to the chassis and hand wires everything, beautifully- I have to use teflon insulated wire to even approximate the quality of the Hammond 1968 assembly team. The 5840 solder in anti-vibration specified tubes are listed at triode, but no longer available, if that is what the lack of a "buy" button means. I also bought a couple of 6GH8A's from triode, their substitute for a 7199 with different pinout and no noise spec, and designed for horizontal sweep, not audio. One of the many 7199's has been the culpret for dimished volume due to lack of connection (in the middle of a piece being played loudly) on the power amp. If I rewire the socket, I'll use the new pinout on it and its complement, putting the unobtainable to date 7199's away for my ST70. I'll let this thread know how it sounds. I have bought some $1.50 600v enhancement NFETS if the socket replacement doesn't work. At least enhancement NFETs don't invert the signal like a common-emmiter BJT. To be continued.
Okay, Wardsweb has found some 9 pin gold plated tube sockets at Angela.com and posted them on another thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/163525-my-take-modern-st-70-a.html. Thanks to Wardsweb. These are $8 a piece, but with rewiring a 9 pin socket probably taking 2-3 hours, certainly worth a try. I bought 12 new tube sockets from triodeelectronics.com, but they didn't have the gold in a chassis mount socket, only PC board. I bought chassis mount sockets with a ring, not delivered yet so don't know what metal, but no specification usually means tin-lead plate steel. Hammond mounts sockets to the chassis and hand wires everything, beautifully- I have to use teflon insulated wire to even approximate the quality of the Hammond 1968 assembly team. The 5840 solder in anti-vibration specified tubes are listed at triode, but no longer available, if that is what the lack of a "buy" button means. I also bought a couple of 6GH8A's from triode, their substitute for a 7199 with different pinout and no noise spec, and designed for horizontal sweep, not audio. One of the many 7199's has been the culpret for dimished volume due to lack of connection (in the middle of a piece being played loudly) on the power amp. If I rewire the socket, I'll use the new pinout on it and its complement, putting the unobtainable to date 7199's away for my ST70. I'll let this thread know how it sounds. I have bought some $1.50 600v enhancement NFETS if the socket replacement doesn't work. At least enhancement NFETs don't invert the signal like a common-emmiter BJT. To be continued.
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Here is an ebay auction for 9-pin sockets with the screw machine contacts. I search for "cmc socket" cmc being the mold style. They come in bakelite also, which are a little less expensive.
CMC Gloden Pins Tube Socket 9 pins for ECC83 12AX7 - eBay (item 130328079101 end time Mar-28-10 17:18:16 PDT)
I just noticed they call the pin material "OFC copper" but on the identical sockets I have it is very tight and springy and I would say acts more like spring bronze...
CMC Gloden Pins Tube Socket 9 pins for ECC83 12AX7 - eBay (item 130328079101 end time Mar-28-10 17:18:16 PDT)
I just noticed they call the pin material "OFC copper" but on the identical sockets I have it is very tight and springy and I would say acts more like spring bronze...
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indianajo said:
Umm, where'd you get that idea? They do invert if used as a common source amplifier. (Increase gate voltage and drain voltage decreases as the device turns on further. ) 😀 Not to mention the fact that you probably really want a depletion mode device if you plan/want to use source bias, and they also invert unless you use a follower - which you can't if you need any voltage gain.
noninversion
Thanks for the tips. Nothing like exhibiting your ignorance to get an education. Still slogging through the new text from charity resale shop, Floyd "Electron Devices-Electron-Flow-Version" which has a much better discussion of BJT's than my college text "GE Transistor Manual Revised seventh Edition". Also way better than William Cooper "Solid-State Devices:Analysis and Application". Slogging though the Jfet section, MosFet's next. Newark/Farnell didn't have any depletion Fets, I wasted $15, tagging along another order, looks like Mouser does.
Thanks for the tips. Nothing like exhibiting your ignorance to get an education. Still slogging through the new text from charity resale shop, Floyd "Electron Devices-Electron-Flow-Version" which has a much better discussion of BJT's than my college text "GE Transistor Manual Revised seventh Edition". Also way better than William Cooper "Solid-State Devices:Analysis and Application". Slogging though the Jfet section, MosFet's next. Newark/Farnell didn't have any depletion Fets, I wasted $15, tagging along another order, looks like Mouser does.
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