Well, I thought I had made up my mind about new output TX's, but some people are starting to make me question my decision.
Are Japanese (and I guess all Asian, to include Silk & James) outputs really generally all better than US made, or is it just an exotic thing.. something different. They're all certainly much smaller than US made outputs. The specs certainly beat the US made ones, but then the US guys say they test them the wrong way and the results defy physics. (not possible to cover such a large frequency range)
And then logically I'd think if all the Japanese iron is better, there must be something similar between the Japanese iron, and if it was indeed better wouldn't the US guys copy it and make their iron better?
So that gets me thinking maybe it really is all hype.
Well. I'll understand if people don't reply and start yet ANOTHER output TX thread, but if anyone feels like chatting.. let me know...
Are Japanese (and I guess all Asian, to include Silk & James) outputs really generally all better than US made, or is it just an exotic thing.. something different. They're all certainly much smaller than US made outputs. The specs certainly beat the US made ones, but then the US guys say they test them the wrong way and the results defy physics. (not possible to cover such a large frequency range)
And then logically I'd think if all the Japanese iron is better, there must be something similar between the Japanese iron, and if it was indeed better wouldn't the US guys copy it and make their iron better?
So that gets me thinking maybe it really is all hype.
Well. I'll understand if people don't reply and start yet ANOTHER output TX thread, but if anyone feels like chatting.. let me know...
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Transformers do not have nationality, different cores may result in different physical dimensions. Additionally, there are no ISO/ANSII standardized way of testing audio output transformers, their characteristics are very dependent upon circuit. BTW, its not a problem to buy Japanese made cores in USA or anywhere else.
There is golden rule - audio output transformer should be wound on 3x core power rating compared to 220V/110V 50*60Hz power transformer.
There is golden rule - audio output transformer should be wound on 3x core power rating compared to 220V/110V 50*60Hz power transformer.
The nationality thing is a gross oversimplification, but just about every discussion on the "best" transformers ends up that way.
When the few US companies are brought up someone is quick to say "well sure they're alright, but should they really be in a discussion about high end" and things like that.....
But on the other hand, I don't see many complaints about any US companies either. Except maybe hammond.
Maybe I just don't want to believe this old country has declined so far it can't even get an output tx right... 😀
When the few US companies are brought up someone is quick to say "well sure they're alright, but should they really be in a discussion about high end" and things like that.....
But on the other hand, I don't see many complaints about any US companies either. Except maybe hammond.
Maybe I just don't want to believe this old country has declined so far it can't even get an output tx right... 😀
I think one could find both excellent and crappy units in every corner of the earth.
There are also excellent transformer houses in the UK, Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany, ...
There are also excellent transformer houses in the UK, Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany, ...
And there it is. The problem is not by transformer, or manufacturer, or country; but instead it is in your mind and of your own making.
No person makes you question your decision, except yourself. You alone choose to question your decision, Grasshopper.
Your full investigation starts just one click away: TransformerSuppliers - diyAudio
: )
I really think it has little to do with country of manufacture. It has more to do with materials and construction.
Most US transforners use EI cores, and use simple (ugly, some may say) end bells (not potted). James, for example, is also EI core but potted in a nice looking can. Tango transformers may be double C-core (like XE-20S) or EI (like U-808) depending on model. Tamura has EI and C cores too. Lundahl uses double C cores, but in an open construction. The list goes on and on...
Then there is core material. Different iron laminations, permalloy, amorphous, you name it. The exotic ones are expensive.
I won't even mention things like silver windings.
Personally, so far for OPTs I've tested/used Hammond, Electra-print, James, Tango, Sowter, and Edcor, one or two Japanese "domestic" brands, plus a couple of custom-made units from oddball builders. Electra-print, James, Sowter, and Tango have measured the best (not necessarily in that order!). James and Tango look the nicest (as does Tamura and Hashimoto, which I've seen but not tested). Which sounds the best? Depends on the circuit 🙂
So, what's important to you? If appearance is secondary, when you consider shipping cost, Electra-Print or Magnequest probably score highly, as might Lundahl (thanks to K&K Audio). If you want pretty on a budget, James wins IMHO. Next up I would go for Tango or Tamura, but I go to Japan all the time and can buy them in person so they aren't ridiculously expensive. If cost and delivery time is no object, maybe talk to Pieter Treurniet of Tribute in Holland or some of the more esoteric builders in Europe.
Not so simple an answer, eh?
🙂
Pete
Most US transforners use EI cores, and use simple (ugly, some may say) end bells (not potted). James, for example, is also EI core but potted in a nice looking can. Tango transformers may be double C-core (like XE-20S) or EI (like U-808) depending on model. Tamura has EI and C cores too. Lundahl uses double C cores, but in an open construction. The list goes on and on...
Then there is core material. Different iron laminations, permalloy, amorphous, you name it. The exotic ones are expensive.
I won't even mention things like silver windings.
Personally, so far for OPTs I've tested/used Hammond, Electra-print, James, Tango, Sowter, and Edcor, one or two Japanese "domestic" brands, plus a couple of custom-made units from oddball builders. Electra-print, James, Sowter, and Tango have measured the best (not necessarily in that order!). James and Tango look the nicest (as does Tamura and Hashimoto, which I've seen but not tested). Which sounds the best? Depends on the circuit 🙂
So, what's important to you? If appearance is secondary, when you consider shipping cost, Electra-Print or Magnequest probably score highly, as might Lundahl (thanks to K&K Audio). If you want pretty on a budget, James wins IMHO. Next up I would go for Tango or Tamura, but I go to Japan all the time and can buy them in person so they aren't ridiculously expensive. If cost and delivery time is no object, maybe talk to Pieter Treurniet of Tribute in Holland or some of the more esoteric builders in Europe.
Not so simple an answer, eh?
🙂
Pete
But Pete, do mention silver wire, as the EP w/ silver is cheaper than a Hashimoto which is also just an iron core, tho double C.
You are partially right, but mostly the problem is in being unable to audition these products before choosing one.
This seems like an empty complaint to me. Imagine a world where every prospective transformer manufacturer would send you a set to audition. Even then, you would have costs -- shipping back and forth, the time to hook them up and listen, risk of loss and damage, etc. Even if someone else had them all hooked up for you, you would still have to go to their house/place of business for which you would incur transportation and time costs. In short, there would be a transaction cost associated with the audition.
For every transformer listed here, you can buy them, try them, and for the ones you decide against, sell them at some loss. That is, you can pay a transaction cost. What's the difference? Either do what we all do, which is buy the type that seems like the best deal and be happy (which is clearly the Electra-Print with copper wire by the way), perhaps buying something else for the next amp, or suck it up, buy a bunch, and sell the losers.
Or, as a more efficient solution, you could have flown to ETF2009 and obtained a lot of info over just one weekend. I personally deeply regret not doing it.
Lundahl is Swedish Lundahl Transformers, audio transformer and tube amplifier transformer manufacturer
German maker Reinhöfer winds some really good OPT:s Audioröhrentechnik
and another german company Welter Welter Audio Electronic Seit 1975
There is also Norwegian and polish companies that make good transformers.
As someone already wrote, there is crap made in every corner of the earth, but there is also good stuff from the most unexpected places on earth.
There is really no other reason for a than nationalism for a US DIY:er to buy transformers made in US, the same would apply to me, i should not be buying anything other than locally made Lundahl transformers, but what good would i then contribute to the world economy? 😉
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And for that matter, a lot of products marked with "made in US", "made in Germany" or "made in UK" is actually just assembled out of parts made in China, Hong-kong and Taiwan, even in some cases just a sticker makes the difference.
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Sure, I was especially thinking of Sowter (UK), Lundahl (SE), AE Europe (NL), Tribute (NL), Amplimo (NL, toroidal OPTs) and Wuesten (DE). But I'm sure there are more.
Well, I have to agree with most things said... good and bad stuff available from everywhere. I have done some testing of various smaller SE OPTs with a 45 breadboard layout. The transformers I used included:
Hammond 125ESE (wired for 5K)
James JS-6113HS (5K tap)
ElectraPrint (custom for the 45, 5K pri)
Magnequest RH40 5K (w/flying leads, endbells and brass HW)
Transcendar (5K 10W)
Hashimoto H507-S (5K tap)
For each, I measured the following at 1-watt:
- power bandwidth
- THD (HP 334A)
- 10KHz Square-Wave response
So, how did they do? Well, not surprisingly, the 125ESE were at the bottom of the heap... but they were quite good value before the last couple of pricing increases... nowadays I wouldn't bother with them at their current pricing. The ElectraPrint, Magnequest and Transcendar all did pretty similar with good square-wave response and ~20KHz bandwidth. The James beat all of these on bandwidth and square-wave response and were good out to 30KHz. The hands down winner was the H507-S... exceptional square-wave response, within 1dB from 25Hz - 50KHz and the lowest distortion.
So, all in all, the Hasimoto and James did the best, followed by ElectraPrint, Magnequest and Transcendar (in no particular order) with Hammond coming in last and still a decent performer. Pricing ranged from $35 each for the 125ESE when I originally bought them on sale to $180 each for the H507-S, with the James being the overall price performers.
Regards, KM
Hammond 125ESE (wired for 5K)
James JS-6113HS (5K tap)
ElectraPrint (custom for the 45, 5K pri)
Magnequest RH40 5K (w/flying leads, endbells and brass HW)
Transcendar (5K 10W)
Hashimoto H507-S (5K tap)
For each, I measured the following at 1-watt:
- power bandwidth
- THD (HP 334A)
- 10KHz Square-Wave response
So, how did they do? Well, not surprisingly, the 125ESE were at the bottom of the heap... but they were quite good value before the last couple of pricing increases... nowadays I wouldn't bother with them at their current pricing. The ElectraPrint, Magnequest and Transcendar all did pretty similar with good square-wave response and ~20KHz bandwidth. The James beat all of these on bandwidth and square-wave response and were good out to 30KHz. The hands down winner was the H507-S... exceptional square-wave response, within 1dB from 25Hz - 50KHz and the lowest distortion.
So, all in all, the Hasimoto and James did the best, followed by ElectraPrint, Magnequest and Transcendar (in no particular order) with Hammond coming in last and still a decent performer. Pricing ranged from $35 each for the 125ESE when I originally bought them on sale to $180 each for the H507-S, with the James being the overall price performers.
Regards, KM
I have very good experience with transformers from ASV Sebart (Slovenia)- double C-cores, excellent bandwidth, resonable prices.
for the Netherlands we have quite a few transformer manufactors here's a list:
Tribute can be found at: Tribute - The final word in audiotransformers
vanderVeen can be found at: Menno van der Veen
Amplimo can be found at: Welcome at Amplimo BV
AE-europe can be found at: Automatic Electric Europe
at AE-eurpe they also wind transormers on demand.
Audio Note of England? I've seen a lot towards their kits and high end gear, but not much about the iron.
Well, It's between two, and I think I can afford to do that... Then I can compare them and finally contribute something to the forum other than questions 🙂.
I've been very happy with my amorphous Tribute input splitter. Ridiculous frequency response, flat as I can measure with perfect phase balance past 100kHz, and ya, it even sounds good (for the subj. crowd).
With the other choices I've tried, with not so good results, I've all but married myself to amorphous Lundahl (silicon when budget restrains). Only wish is that their power transformers would be shielded. I suppose I could custom order.
At the end of the day, I bite the bullet and pay the price for what I know is good. Is it the best? maybe, maybe not - but I've never been disappointed with Lundahl.
With the other choices I've tried, with not so good results, I've all but married myself to amorphous Lundahl (silicon when budget restrains). Only wish is that their power transformers would be shielded. I suppose I could custom order.
At the end of the day, I bite the bullet and pay the price for what I know is good. Is it the best? maybe, maybe not - but I've never been disappointed with Lundahl.
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