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Old 5th December 2009, 01:12 AM   #241
mach1 is offline mach1  Australia
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Curly old mate,

Leave the troll bait. I think we all know where this going.
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Old 5th December 2009, 03:13 AM   #242
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Curly old mate,

Leave the troll bait. I think we all know where this going.
This is not troll bait. I was asked a question and I answered it. Unless you are inferring the person asking the question was trolling.
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Old 5th December 2009, 07:44 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Curly Woods View Post
This is not troll bait. I was asked a question and I answered it. Unless you are inferring the person asking the question was trolling.
Curly & Mach1,

Besides the arguments, is there any technical/scientific proof about these different type of resistors or caps changing the character of the sound? We believe we are hearing a change in the sound. But that is subjective always and can't be proven. I am new to this topic and like to know technicality behind all these arguments. Can some one explain?

Have seen the same topic many times in forums but no one explained it technically. Everybody just advertising their opinion

Last edited by coolzero; 5th December 2009 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 5th December 2009, 11:43 AM   #244
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Quote:
Besides the arguments, is there any technical/scientific proof about these different type of resistors or caps changing the character of the sound? We believe we are hearing a change in the sound. But that is subjective always and can't be proven. I am new to this topic and like to know technicality behind all these arguments. Can some one explain?
I think there is scientific proof the some kind of resistors "make" less noise than others. I.e. carbon films are known as noisy. Metal film as quieter. The "problem" comes in when the subjective crowd says that the noisier ones actually "sound" better. Then the objectives come in and say that that cannot be because they are noisier. Bla bla bla.

It is a pointless discussion really. And most tube amp folks I know use carbon based and Mills often as plate loads.

Allen Wright and Menno van der Veen are 2 exceptions I know of (metal based) ps. Allen prefers Mills as well as plate loads (Ridon is apparently very good as well). And I don't think anyone is wrong or right. However... I really believe that in a Single Ended amplifier you can hear differences between resistors. Notice the word believe. Guess that means I'm faith based. And I do believe that in solid state amps (for whatever reason) the differences between resistors are negligible and in that case it might actually make sense to use metal based because of the precision and constantness (is that a word?) over time.
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Old 5th December 2009, 11:55 AM   #245
SY is offline SY  United States
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There's indeed noise differences, but as usual, it depends on where and how. But for grid stoppers, traditionally carbon comps (the worst for excess noise) work best because of the low inductance. Generally, the excess noise is irrelevant in that usage. For plate resistors, wirewound seem to work the best- lowest excess noise, lowest voltage coefficient of resistance.

Context is everything in component choice.
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Old 5th December 2009, 12:17 PM   #246
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Curly & Mach1,

Besides the arguments, is there any technical/scientific proof about these different type of resistors or caps changing the character of the sound? We believe we are hearing a change in the sound. But that is subjective always and can't be proven. I am new to this topic and like to know technicality behind all these arguments. Can some one explain?

Have seen the same topic many times in forums but no one explained it technically. Everybody just advertising their opinion
This a can of worms here. Carbon's are supposed to be more noisy than metal films and they do have a less "crisp" sound to them. Are they less accurate? Define "accurate".

There are too many variables that are still not totally understood, in my opinion, about why different components, sound different. As Bas stated, I only experiment with tubed amps/preamps, so I have no first hand knowledge about what the differences are or are not in a solid state product. I can hear them fairly easily in my tubed units, but these are subtle differences, at first. Sy's post above is a good general rule of thumb for resistor choices in a tubed circuit, as I also posted earlier.

As I get used to the sound and if I change to something else, the differences are possibly exaggerated, so I must let the new component settle in and allow me time to listen to a lot of music to determine if I truly feel that the changes are good or bad. This takes time and I have swapped back and forth multiple times between components to make sure that I was not attracted to one aspect or another of the changes to the sound. I have a base line that I have developed over many years of listening to a set of recordings. I trust these to give me a really good idea as to changes(good or bad).

Sometimes the changes are not good (Teflon capacitors) at first blush, but over about 20 hours of playing music, that all changed. I was told that they may take up to 100 hours to change for the better, but I was really not expecting the erratic sound I heard when they were first installed. The bass was bloated, the mids sucked out, the highs very grainy (noisy). They settled down and I am extremely happy with them as a coupling cap. Best that I have ever tried.

Not everyone will agree that passive components can be used to "dial in" your tube electronics, to a desired final tonal balance (not frequency related). You sound like that you have found some difference in your own experiences. Can you repeat this over and over again and still feel that the changes are for the better for your music and system? If you like carbons vs. metal films, you can not be accused of liking the more expensive ones as a bias though :-) Accuracy is what you feel it is vs the sound of unamplified music. Your exposure to more real music, will allow you to better judge what accurate is to you and your ears. No stereo system will ever come close to the real thing, but you can work to achieve the parts of the experience that move you emotionally. These can and probably are different for all of us. That is the joy of DIY. You have the opportunity to build your own to suit your tastes. I think it is a great adventure and one that has kept me an active listener for many, many years.

Last edited by Curly Woods; 5th December 2009 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 5th December 2009, 01:53 PM   #247
Magura is offline Magura  Denmark
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
Context is everything in component choice.
Exactly!

That is what I tried to point out, questioning Curly's blanket statements.



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Old 5th December 2009, 01:56 PM   #248
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Exactly!

That is what I tried to point out, questioning Curly's blanket statements.



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I did not make a blanket statement. These are just guidelines, just as Sy stated. Somethings should be followed though like non inductive types for grid stoppers and cathodes, but other than that any type can be used as preferred. This is not rocket science. It is seasoning to taste

Last edited by Curly Woods; 5th December 2009 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 6th December 2009, 05:07 PM   #249
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Without at all being against battery biasing, it should be noted that, contrary to common belief, batteries are not noiseless. In my experience, they can contribute significant amounts of white noise, so they may best be decoupled by a split resistor/cap. That damn capacitor sneaks in again, of course.
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Old 6th December 2009, 05:26 PM   #250
iko is offline iko  Canada
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Originally Posted by Magura View Post
Exactly!

That is what I tried to point out, questioning Curly's blanket statements.
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(Curly, no disrespect meant, I'm just sayin'!)
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