This is not troll bait. I was asked a question and I answered it. Unless you are inferring the person asking the question was trolling.
Curly & Mach1,
Besides the arguments, is there any technical/scientific proof about these different type of resistors or caps changing the character of the sound? We believe we are hearing a change in the sound. But that is subjective always and can't be proven. I am new to this topic and like to know technicality behind all these arguments. Can some one explain?
Have seen the same topic many times in forums but no one explained it technically. Everybody just advertising their opinion
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I think there is scientific proof the some kind of resistors "make" less noise than others. I.e. carbon films are known as noisy. Metal film as quieter. The "problem" comes in when the subjective crowd says that the noisier ones actually "sound" better. Then the objectives come in and say that that cannot be because they are noisier. Bla bla bla.
It is a pointless discussion really. And most tube amp folks I know use carbon based and Mills often as plate loads.
Allen Wright and Menno van der Veen are 2 exceptions I know of (metal based) ps. Allen prefers Mills as well as plate loads (Ridon is apparently very good as well). And I don't think anyone is wrong or right. However... I really believe that in a Single Ended amplifier you can hear differences between resistors. Notice the word believe. Guess that means I'm faith based. And I do believe that in solid state amps (for whatever reason) the differences between resistors are negligible and in that case it might actually make sense to use metal based because of the precision and constantness (is that a word?) over time.
There's indeed noise differences, but as usual, it depends on where and how. But for grid stoppers, traditionally carbon comps (the worst for excess noise) work best because of the low inductance. Generally, the excess noise is irrelevant in that usage. For plate resistors, wirewound seem to work the best- lowest excess noise, lowest voltage coefficient of resistance.
Context is everything in component choice.
Context is everything in component choice.
Curly & Mach1,
Besides the arguments, is there any technical/scientific proof about these different type of resistors or caps changing the character of the sound? We believe we are hearing a change in the sound. But that is subjective always and can't be proven. I am new to this topic and like to know technicality behind all these arguments. Can some one explain?
Have seen the same topic many times in forums but no one explained it technically. Everybody just advertising their opinion
This a can of worms here. Carbon's are supposed to be more noisy than metal films and they do have a less "crisp" sound to them. Are they less accurate? Define "accurate".
There are too many variables that are still not totally understood, in my opinion, about why different components, sound different. As Bas stated, I only experiment with tubed amps/preamps, so I have no first hand knowledge about what the differences are or are not in a solid state product. I can hear them fairly easily in my tubed units, but these are subtle differences, at first. Sy's post above is a good general rule of thumb for resistor choices in a tubed circuit, as I also posted earlier.
As I get used to the sound and if I change to something else, the differences are possibly exaggerated, so I must let the new component settle in and allow me time to listen to a lot of music to determine if I truly feel that the changes are good or bad. This takes time and I have swapped back and forth multiple times between components to make sure that I was not attracted to one aspect or another of the changes to the sound. I have a base line that I have developed over many years of listening to a set of recordings. I trust these to give me a really good idea as to changes(good or bad).
Sometimes the changes are not good (Teflon capacitors) at first blush, but over about 20 hours of playing music, that all changed. I was told that they may take up to 100 hours to change for the better, but I was really not expecting the erratic sound I heard when they were first installed. The bass was bloated, the mids sucked out, the highs very grainy (noisy). They settled down and I am extremely happy with them as a coupling cap. Best that I have ever tried.
Not everyone will agree that passive components can be used to "dial in" your tube electronics, to a desired final tonal balance (not frequency related). You sound like that you have found some difference in your own experiences. Can you repeat this over and over again and still feel that the changes are for the better for your music and system? If you like carbons vs. metal films, you can not be accused of liking the more expensive ones as a bias though
Accuracy is what you feel it is vs the sound of unamplified music. Your exposure to more real music, will allow you to better judge what accurate is to you and your ears. No stereo system will ever come close to the real thing, but you can work to achieve the parts of the experience that move you emotionally. These can and probably are different for all of us. That is the joy of DIY. You have the opportunity to build your own to suit your tastes. I think it is a great adventure and one that has kept me an active listener for many, many years.
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Exactly!
That is what I tried to point out, questioning Curly's blanket statements.
Magura
I did not make a blanket statement. These are just guidelines, just as Sy stated. Somethings should be followed though like non inductive types for grid stoppers and cathodes, but other than that any type can be used as preferred. This is not rocket science. It is seasoning to taste
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Without at all being against battery biasing, it should be noted that, contrary to common belief, batteries are not noiseless. In my experience, they can contribute significant amounts of white noise, so they may best be decoupled by a split resistor/cap. That damn capacitor sneaks in again, of course.
Exactly!
That is what I tried to point out, questioning Curly's blanket statements.
Magura
Blankets are nice, they keep me warm
(Curly, no disrespect meant, I'm just sayin'!)
Blankets are nice, they keep me warm
(Curly, no disrespect meant, I'm just sayin'!)
None taken Iko
One of the other thread which Andy posted in 2007, he mentioned about hum due to unbalanced filament supply when 26 tubes put in series. Can someone explain this? I use series filament and sometimes experiencing slight high frequency hum which I believe due to the same reason. I experimented with different filament voltage and current variations where I noticed that the 26 inducing hum when the current goes below certain limit.
Hi,
I've stopped putting tubes in series - separate filament supplies for each tube. Don't know if hum was the problem, but I just made the decision to use one supply per tube. I just use a big cap and a LM1084 so the filament supply is pretty simple, apart from the sheer bulk of it including the heatsink.
andy
I've stopped putting tubes in series - separate filament supplies for each tube. Don't know if hum was the problem, but I just made the decision to use one supply per tube. I just use a big cap and a LM1084 so the filament supply is pretty simple, apart from the sheer bulk of it including the heatsink.
andy
I tried simple voltage sources following simple current source using LM317 and 10000uf caps but still there was a loud buzzing.
Do you use seperate transformer secundaries for LV?I tried simple voltage sources following simple current source using LM317 and 10000uf caps but still there was a loud buzzing.
Further, connecting the filaments in series makes a beautiful antenna for strayfields.
Hi coolzero,
you say you have "voltage sources following simple current source". I'm not quite sure I understand you here. If you mean "I have a voltage source following a current source" that makes no sense - the Ronan Reg type circuit has voltage reg first then current source as last in the chain before the filaments. Current source should be last, even a common mode choke seems to make no improvement after the current source, though curiously it improves things after a voltage reg. But you may mean "first I tried a current source, then I tried a voltage reg and they both hummed".
I can't diagnose your problem, but I can only say my setup doesn't hum. I use a LM1084. And I use a seperate power supply - the transformer is in another box, and so is the HT including the choke - only DC goes to the signal chassis. And each filament has a separate transformer. I have loads of small 6v transformers which I use for filaments. And another thing - these filament transformers can pick up hum if they are close to chokes and mains transformers even in the remote PSU box. The whole filament supply from beginning to end has to be kept away from any magnetic fields.
andy
you say you have "voltage sources following simple current source". I'm not quite sure I understand you here. If you mean "I have a voltage source following a current source" that makes no sense - the Ronan Reg type circuit has voltage reg first then current source as last in the chain before the filaments. Current source should be last, even a common mode choke seems to make no improvement after the current source, though curiously it improves things after a voltage reg. But you may mean "first I tried a current source, then I tried a voltage reg and they both hummed".
I can't diagnose your problem, but I can only say my setup doesn't hum. I use a LM1084. And I use a seperate power supply - the transformer is in another box, and so is the HT including the choke - only DC goes to the signal chassis. And each filament has a separate transformer. I have loads of small 6v transformers which I use for filaments. And another thing - these filament transformers can pick up hum if they are close to chokes and mains transformers even in the remote PSU box. The whole filament supply from beginning to end has to be kept away from any magnetic fields.
andy
Andy,
Sorry for the confusion in my explanation. It is somewhat similar to Ronan's with voltage regulator first and current regulator after that. It was not two of those separably I have used. I used a transformer with dual secondary windings of each 5V/1A. Everywhere I read about this, people mentioned that this works like a charm but for me it was a hummingbird in side my 26 pre
. Later I found those SMPS and used one for the filament but then came this slight high frequency hum from one channel I believe becuase of not enough current floating across the series filaments. One other thing I noticed was that, when 26 filaments put on series one of the filament slightly brighter than other and there is a slight delay always when those are lighten up. One fires up a second or two later than the other. There was no change of this behaviour even the different tubes were used. Something funny.
hi, without knowing your exact build it's guessing what went wrong. This artice holds all information you need for building a hum free amplifier. I'll upload some data in a couple of hours so you can compare yours.
Hi,
I started with Jim's 26 pre and modified it to the present level with help of Kevin and many other in this forum. I have posted the schematic and the details in this same thread before. Initially I followed all Jim's advices mentioned in his site but with less luck. Even Jim had mentioned that he had hum issue with his 26 preamp which he couldn't get rid of. What I have now is far better than the original design in terms of hum and sound quality. I checked and re-checked many time of grounding, filtering, shielding and all the other possible hum inducing mishaps hence pretty sure that the slight high frequency hum I am getting time to time in my audio path is not related to any of those usual suspects.