I haven't heard this one,but I have bought one of their smaller amplifiers with 6V6 tubes for my daughter's graduation from university.It's remote control (made of 3-4mm of solid aluminium sheets)could have cost almost as much as the amp itself if it was made in EU or USA(I speak from experience when a friend showed me the invoice for a spare remote control he bought for his........)Only thing I can say is that nothing at that price can come close to its sound.With a decent cd player and a pair of old Rogers LS6 speakers,my daughter's system is a killer.
As Steve M very correctly said,the day when "Made in China"will be a luxury is very near.In fact I would say that the Chinese are today able to make audio of equal quality with anyone elses.What they need and already started to improve at,is marketing.The specific manufacturer that makes this amplifier has already established a European distribution network and growing strong.If they manage to keep costs as they are now,then many non-Chinese manufacturers will eventually feel the problem.
TubeMack,for $500 and free shipping,BUY IT.Ask them,I think there is an all black version if you prefer.
As Steve M very correctly said,the day when "Made in China"will be a luxury is very near.In fact I would say that the Chinese are today able to make audio of equal quality with anyone elses.What they need and already started to improve at,is marketing.The specific manufacturer that makes this amplifier has already established a European distribution network and growing strong.If they manage to keep costs as they are now,then many non-Chinese manufacturers will eventually feel the problem.
TubeMack,for $500 and free shipping,BUY IT.Ask them,I think there is an all black version if you prefer.
Just goes to show you that the raw materials cost is not the determining factor in product price. They are hitting an economy of scale, benefitting hugely from cheap labor all down the chain, and some are taking losses on individual sales from time to time (amps selling in the $200 range) in order to stay visible in the market.
The quality seems to be adequate in most cases. The styling is IMO a little pimped out ;-) but that's popular these days.
Also if you read the fine print in this auction the shipping will cost most people $256US because only air shipping is offered to most countries.
The free shipping is a 9 week ground service with limited destinations.
Consider: A DIY ipod would probably cost about $800 and you'd need a shoulder strap
The quality seems to be adequate in most cases. The styling is IMO a little pimped out ;-) but that's popular these days.
Also if you read the fine print in this auction the shipping will cost most people $256US because only air shipping is offered to most countries.
The free shipping is a 9 week ground service with limited destinations.
Consider: A DIY ipod would probably cost about $800 and you'd need a shoulder strap
I have tested (and some also modified) some china tube products. They are not so bad as many people says. They are not the top of the market, but considering the price, they are quite good.
The rest are only prejudices.
If I want to build by scratch a pushpull like that I will spend more then 500 US dollars.
The rest are only prejudices.
If I want to build by scratch a pushpull like that I will spend more then 500 US dollars.
I had to join to reply. Have been lurking and learning from this site for over a year now, but this post is soo powerful, trying to keep it alive. Please bere with me. And keep this post in the forefront (especially and manufacturers and retailers that should be in here regularly).
REALITY CHECK gentlemen. Its a shame that the title from the OP of this post included "bumed". Yes it's a bummer in some small sense about the Chinese invasion in the worldwide markets over the past years or so, but if thats what it takes to adjust the markets to more affordable cost-per-dollar tube amp quality, I and many MANY millions more cheer for it.
My late great father, whose entire life and career revolved around music (as a professional) and his home audiophile equipment, NEVER could afford a decent tube amp in the USA. And we were upper middle class. Before his recent demise and convos we had, his direct quote was "IT'S 2009 SON, NOT 1969".
I am at the forefront about child labor labor and cheap displaced Chinese workers in just about any facet of their manufacturing. But if there is a silver lining to this cloud, and what it takes to finally get the US and world markets to affordable tube amps for everyone, so be it!
Take another good look at the OP's original post and pic. Don't tell me or any audiophile anywhere that's not a thing of beauty, and PRICED FOR THE COMMON MAN. That's exactly what NOW, in 2009, is needed to get the attention of parts and other manufacturers to adjust their retail or other prices to reasonable levels, something that has NEVER existed. The days of snobish select few upper income consumers for home tube amps is hopefully on it's way out.
I literally know close to a thousand younger guys and gals in their twenties and thirties that now all know about tube amps vrs solid state. NONE of them can afford tube amps and the redicilious norms that have existed forever. Until China has now trying to reach some of the more affluent markets.
Nobody is debating the inherent problems with them (including safety). But they are not that bad. At all. If that is what it takes to get the hard working consumers to spend their money on, and put significant amounts of strain on the waaay overpriced retailers and manufacturers that are not in China to reduce their prices and adjust exsisting norms and product to acceptable leves for all, I cant cheer loud enough. I AM NOT ALONE.
I had often thought about starting a new thread on this subject solely; and still may. But for now, I hope this thread get's some tangible attention.
Additionally, I am one of the guys trying to get Music Angel (and similar) amps affordable and available in the US markets (sorry Brits..lol), that are either improved and modified from the Chinese manufactures already, or the means to correct the numerous problems with them once they are in the US marketplace and are modified with corrections before sale and retail. It's a loong uphill battle. The only thing that counts is if the consumer wins. and decent home audiophile tube amps make it into the mainstream and are affordable for EVERYONE.
Allow me to say one more time just how cosmetically appealing the OP's original pic from the manufacturer is. I know it's what inside and the engineering that counts.. but.. if this is what it takes....
REALITY CHECK gentlemen. Its a shame that the title from the OP of this post included "bumed". Yes it's a bummer in some small sense about the Chinese invasion in the worldwide markets over the past years or so, but if thats what it takes to adjust the markets to more affordable cost-per-dollar tube amp quality, I and many MANY millions more cheer for it.
My late great father, whose entire life and career revolved around music (as a professional) and his home audiophile equipment, NEVER could afford a decent tube amp in the USA. And we were upper middle class. Before his recent demise and convos we had, his direct quote was "IT'S 2009 SON, NOT 1969".
I am at the forefront about child labor labor and cheap displaced Chinese workers in just about any facet of their manufacturing. But if there is a silver lining to this cloud, and what it takes to finally get the US and world markets to affordable tube amps for everyone, so be it!
Take another good look at the OP's original post and pic. Don't tell me or any audiophile anywhere that's not a thing of beauty, and PRICED FOR THE COMMON MAN. That's exactly what NOW, in 2009, is needed to get the attention of parts and other manufacturers to adjust their retail or other prices to reasonable levels, something that has NEVER existed. The days of snobish select few upper income consumers for home tube amps is hopefully on it's way out.
I literally know close to a thousand younger guys and gals in their twenties and thirties that now all know about tube amps vrs solid state. NONE of them can afford tube amps and the redicilious norms that have existed forever. Until China has now trying to reach some of the more affluent markets.
Nobody is debating the inherent problems with them (including safety). But they are not that bad. At all. If that is what it takes to get the hard working consumers to spend their money on, and put significant amounts of strain on the waaay overpriced retailers and manufacturers that are not in China to reduce their prices and adjust exsisting norms and product to acceptable leves for all, I cant cheer loud enough. I AM NOT ALONE.
I had often thought about starting a new thread on this subject solely; and still may. But for now, I hope this thread get's some tangible attention.
Additionally, I am one of the guys trying to get Music Angel (and similar) amps affordable and available in the US markets (sorry Brits..lol), that are either improved and modified from the Chinese manufactures already, or the means to correct the numerous problems with them once they are in the US marketplace and are modified with corrections before sale and retail. It's a loong uphill battle. The only thing that counts is if the consumer wins. and decent home audiophile tube amps make it into the mainstream and are affordable for EVERYONE.
Allow me to say one more time just how cosmetically appealing the OP's original pic from the manufacturer is. I know it's what inside and the engineering that counts.. but.. if this is what it takes....
Rockmore, I am with you. I've designed several prototypes of better than studio quality amplifiers to be affordable for many-many of those who wants very clean reproduction available for hundreds of thousands dollars only, now I am seeking for manufacturers that can produce them for the price close to what we see on the picture. But I can not! All Chinese manufacturers I've contacted seems to me view us as a source of easy money, their prices look as if they need to build the whole factory, while I know well that they have to lay off their workers because have not enough of orders. It is kind of weird situation, but I still hope to find some, probably through the forum!
This thread puzzles me. There seem to be quite a few threads on this list from folks who purchased a chinese (PRC) amp on ebay which promptly catches on fire, blows the tubes and then finally blows the fuse. With lots of free help from overly kind folks here, they repair the fire damage, replace 1/2 the circuit, replace the power transformer then post on this list what a fine purchase they made.
"For $500, it sounds great!"
At some point, you cannot avoid the fact that you will never get more than what you paid for. Sometimes less, but never more.
"For $500, it sounds great!"
At some point, you cannot avoid the fact that you will never get more than what you paid for. Sometimes less, but never more.
Please consider also that the MC-100B amp in the pic is but a 'start' in the line up of Chinese audio amps, if its that good looking at $500 just imagine how good a $2,000 Chinese amp is !?!?
Here is a website for a U.K based company Ornec representing many Chinese audio products - the quality and variety of products on offer is mind blowing!
http://www.ornec.com/Amplifiers_QQB4B
Shanling CD300 $5K
Mingda Dual 845 Monoblocs 95w/ch (UK designed) $3KUSD
Melody 1688 preamp $3K
Looks like pretty good workmanship to me ...
Regards,
Steve M.
Here is a website for a U.K based company Ornec representing many Chinese audio products - the quality and variety of products on offer is mind blowing!
http://www.ornec.com/Amplifiers_QQB4B
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Shanling CD300 $5K
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Mingda Dual 845 Monoblocs 95w/ch (UK designed) $3KUSD
Melody 1688 preamp $3K
Looks like pretty good workmanship to me ...
Regards,
Steve M.
Rockmore said:
Rockmore, welcome aboard. Don't take this personally, I'm just using your post as a springboard.
What you wrote is exactly what is wrong with our attitudes as consumers. Cheaper is better? Not if you are exporting your dollars for something of temporary value.
When we import stuff and exchange hard currency for it, we are exporting dollars in exchange for that stuff. The dollars leave our shores forever, at least in a large proportion. We as a country lose that net wealth.
In exchange we have gotten some doodad of temporary value. Be it a car, a tube amp, or a McD's Kids Meal plastic toy. In time that doodad becomes worthless. But the dollars that were exchanged for it retain their value in some foreign land.
This is quite different than exchanging your dollars for a domestically produced product because in that case the dollars remain onshore and are then returned to the national economy. Perhaps they are invested in stocks/bonds/mutual funds and help create or expand a business. Perhaps they are used to purchase the product or service that you provide. Perhaps they are put in the bank and then help multiply the money supply.
A dollar kept in the domestic economy is worth more than a dollar. A dollar exported to China is a loss of a dollar to the domestic economy.
In the long run, domestic purchases are cheaper than the number on the price tag because of the growth factor of the dollar remaining onshore. Imported products are more expensive than the price tag because of the loss of the money from our economy.
For the individual buying one gizmo, yeah it is cheaper to buy an import. But in the aggregate and in the long run, it costs all of us a lot more to buy imports. If you were buying gold or other durable valuables, it would be a very different story. But that is not the case.
What makes domestic products so expensive is in large part government regulations and taxes. Have you tried to start a company to produce electronics? Have you looked into the OSHA and EPA regulations for companies that use Lead, as is found in solder and many electronics components? How about other heavy metals used in electronics? Then there are all the payroll taxes such as worker's comp and FICA. And mandatory health insurance if they are full time. Your basic $10/hr semi-skilled assembler will cost you $18/hr or more. Your cost of compliance with OSHA and EPA will be thousands per year. Your cost of accounting and compliance with employee laws and regulations will be thousands per year. Your legal expenses to defend against frivolous employee lawsuits and consumer lawsuits can be astronomical.
The Chinese can make a product as well as we can, and they can do it a lot cheaper because of the lack of government regs and taxes. Their lower hourly pay is only a small part of the reason they can build things so cheap.
In any case, supply and demand control the price. If someone could domestically build a high quality tube amp for $500, and if people wanted to buy it, it would happen. What we will likely see is not domestic manufacturers lowering their prices, but going out of business or contracting offshore for production. Just like the auto manufacturers who moved factories to Mexico, or electronics manufacturers that moved production to Asia. You'll get your cheap but good amp, and those who used to make amps in the USA for a good wage will be serving you fries with your McBurger.
I'm the original poster.
It was just a little shocking to see what $500 could get you after spending a few weeks trying to source decent casework for a DIY in the US. Nothing of that caliber is available for ANY price. If you want something nice for the main living room, one would be better off to buy that amp, and rip the guts out, then P2P a new layout. I may just do that!
As for high end pricing, I've been preamp shoping on Audiogon. As I have been out of the loop for 20 years, I was shocked at the listed MSRP of some of these things. Just obscene I tell you. If you figure in overhead, US labor costs, US regulations, low volume, some of those units are still 10x what they shoud cost.
Come on, 20 grand for a preamp? This is what I call the Rich man penelty fee or the playboy tax! What do you think, about $2000 in costs, and then bend over as they extract the other $18,000 without lube? Kinda turns you off from the hobby. I wouldn't let a car dealer rip me off on a new car, why would I let these guys do it to me. The people on this forum know better than most that the guts in these things just don't cost that much, and now the amp I posted demonstrates that the fancy case work dosen't cost that much either! Let me be clear, I've never had a problem paying for quality, styling, and premium materals, but I will never pay some kinda of bizarro playboy penalty fee.
I say bring the asian amps on!
(and cheap casework / parts for the DIYers!)
It was just a little shocking to see what $500 could get you after spending a few weeks trying to source decent casework for a DIY in the US. Nothing of that caliber is available for ANY price. If you want something nice for the main living room, one would be better off to buy that amp, and rip the guts out, then P2P a new layout. I may just do that!
As for high end pricing, I've been preamp shoping on Audiogon. As I have been out of the loop for 20 years, I was shocked at the listed MSRP of some of these things. Just obscene I tell you. If you figure in overhead, US labor costs, US regulations, low volume, some of those units are still 10x what they shoud cost.
Come on, 20 grand for a preamp? This is what I call the Rich man penelty fee or the playboy tax! What do you think, about $2000 in costs, and then bend over as they extract the other $18,000 without lube? Kinda turns you off from the hobby. I wouldn't let a car dealer rip me off on a new car, why would I let these guys do it to me. The people on this forum know better than most that the guts in these things just don't cost that much, and now the amp I posted demonstrates that the fancy case work dosen't cost that much either! Let me be clear, I've never had a problem paying for quality, styling, and premium materals, but I will never pay some kinda of bizarro playboy penalty fee.
I say bring the asian amps on!
(and cheap casework / parts for the DIYers!)
post 32
Disagree. Stuff made in the USA is expensive because of a huge range of reasons. You can blame taxes, corporate structure, insurance, workers comp etc all you like, but the reality doesn't change - and for some products your pay more because you EXPECT, in fact, WANT to pay more. A designer label is worth nothing if its $9.95 at "take you to the Wal-mart".
Likewise, some stuff is cheap. You have, for example, insanely cheap fast food. It will kill you, and it doesn't taste that great, but it sells by the semi-load.
This thread should be read alongside the designer power-cord thread. Then you would get my drift. There is, without doubt, an element of exclusive snobbery that drives the price of "designer" electronics up.
Bring on the global electronics market - and accept that it will change perceptions of what any item is "worth".
Disagree. Stuff made in the USA is expensive because of a huge range of reasons. You can blame taxes, corporate structure, insurance, workers comp etc all you like, but the reality doesn't change - and for some products your pay more because you EXPECT, in fact, WANT to pay more. A designer label is worth nothing if its $9.95 at "take you to the Wal-mart".
Likewise, some stuff is cheap. You have, for example, insanely cheap fast food. It will kill you, and it doesn't taste that great, but it sells by the semi-load.
This thread should be read alongside the designer power-cord thread. Then you would get my drift. There is, without doubt, an element of exclusive snobbery that drives the price of "designer" electronics up.
Bring on the global electronics market - and accept that it will change perceptions of what any item is "worth".
Well said Tubemack and I'll take it a step further, most of the Chinese gear these days is well built, has good electrical theory behind it and some are even tried and tested circuits from Williamson, Mackintosh and the like. You'll be so surprised with the sound, you may not even gut this amp for its chassis alone. Don't forget these amps also offer an opportunity for tweaking to theoretically improve the sound for all you DIYers that are so inclined.
I think the trouble here is that the prices and aesthetics of the Chonese gear is so good it challenges the whole notion of DIY - and perhaps that has hit a raw nerve with some on this site.
Regards,
Steve M.
I think the trouble here is that the prices and aesthetics of the Chonese gear is so good it challenges the whole notion of DIY - and perhaps that has hit a raw nerve with some on this site.
Regards,
Steve M.
flysig said:
Ah, but you can't listen to currency, nor can you eat it or clothe yourself with it. You've made the mistake of confusing money with wealth. Wealth is determined by what you can do or purchase, not by how many pieces of paper you have. You do understand that if we send money somewhere else and they do nothing with it, that would mean that they traded an amplifier for pieces of paper or electronic digits... What a deal! Unfortunately for us, they do indeed use that money, they expect something back. Currency is debt. Whoever holds it is entitled to goods or services. The Chinese surely cash in on those IOU's. Here in the US, that has mostly taken the form of buying our debt but there has also been quite a bit of bond, stock, and other investment over here as well. Believe it or not, they have even imported some American stuff too. They have to do something with those dollars...
Currency trading aside, the key thing to remember is that anything that makes the stuff we buy less expensive increases our wealth. We are able to buy more (or do more, make more, etc) for the same amount of money. That is the definition of an increase in wealth. It could be caused by better machinery, technology, or less expensive labor, the result is the same. We get richer as costs go down. Focusing on money instead of wealth will lead to ideas like it is better to pay more for the things we want, or at least that less expensive things are somehow hurting us.
Isaac
There's dollar store trash made in all countries and perhaps more
of it in China. But there's a tendency to diss everything coming out of that country.
There are some excellent designers in China and they do come out with
top notch work. For quality, you would pay premium anywhere, though
that premium may be lower in some parts of the world.
Some of the work posted on a chinese diy group is as good as any
posted here. Can't read Chinese, but the pics speak for themselves.
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2089&sid=e2c5ac53e11db2d68889ff0a24e75664
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2254&sid=4ac54e0189780fa15ddf30e0e77dbf70
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2249&sid=4ac54e0189780fa15ddf30e0e77dbf70
BTW, seems like the small amp in the first link is the same as the one here
http://www.ppj-acoustics.cn/
Prasad
Hyderabad, India
of it in China. But there's a tendency to diss everything coming out of that country.
There are some excellent designers in China and they do come out with
top notch work. For quality, you would pay premium anywhere, though
that premium may be lower in some parts of the world.
Some of the work posted on a chinese diy group is as good as any
posted here. Can't read Chinese, but the pics speak for themselves.
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2089&sid=e2c5ac53e11db2d68889ff0a24e75664
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2254&sid=4ac54e0189780fa15ddf30e0e77dbf70
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2249&sid=4ac54e0189780fa15ddf30e0e77dbf70
BTW, seems like the small amp in the first link is the same as the one here
http://www.ppj-acoustics.cn/
Prasad
Hyderabad, India
I remember days when I was a millionaire in Russia. 
My salary was couple of millions. But bread was thousands. Being a millionaire I was not rich. I was an average person.
It is called inflation. We are happy our American national currency is used worldwide. We are happy that amount of dollars we produce does not depend on the golden reserve, our central reserve computer can produce whatever we need. What can we offer to the global economy? Right, we offer dollar! We export more and more dollars, importing real goods. What does it mean? It mean, each dollar is cheaper and cheaper, day to day, so we need to spend more and more dollars to buy what we need to live. We can not afford production made by ourselves because we don't have money to pay for it. We are poor. The more dollars we produce the poorer we are
We are getting poorer and poorer, we can afford less and less, so in order to survive we have to buy goods from other countries where dollar still has a value. But the more we buy from them, the more dollars we issue, the less is it's cost, even in China. Dollar was big in Japan many years ago. Now it is still big enough in China. But it is cheaper and cheaper there.
What's next?
It was called Marshall's plan, to export empty dollars instead of real goods. It helped to avoid a national crisis after WW-II, when manufacturing could not stop overnight producing for the army and navy goods that were not needed anymore because the war was over. But now it caused what is called "Global Economical Crisis". It was exported. And multiplied globally.
My salary was couple of millions. But bread was thousands. Being a millionaire I was not rich. I was an average person.It is called inflation. We are happy our American national currency is used worldwide. We are happy that amount of dollars we produce does not depend on the golden reserve, our central reserve computer can produce whatever we need. What can we offer to the global economy? Right, we offer dollar! We export more and more dollars, importing real goods. What does it mean? It mean, each dollar is cheaper and cheaper, day to day, so we need to spend more and more dollars to buy what we need to live. We can not afford production made by ourselves because we don't have money to pay for it. We are poor. The more dollars we produce the poorer we are
We are getting poorer and poorer, we can afford less and less, so in order to survive we have to buy goods from other countries where dollar still has a value. But the more we buy from them, the more dollars we issue, the less is it's cost, even in China. Dollar was big in Japan many years ago. Now it is still big enough in China. But it is cheaper and cheaper there.
What's next?
It was called Marshall's plan, to export empty dollars instead of real goods. It helped to avoid a national crisis after WW-II, when manufacturing could not stop overnight producing for the army and navy goods that were not needed anymore because the war was over. But now it caused what is called "Global Economical Crisis". It was exported. And multiplied globally.
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