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Old 22nd April 2009, 10:41 PM   #1
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Default transformer rubbish

there's a lot of rubbish spouted about transformers

1/ There is absolutely no correlation between conductance/resistance of wire, and sound quality.

correlation, there is no proof silver wire sounds better, its simply more valuable in jewellery as its rarer and more expensive, there is no proof is sounds better.

2/ there is no proof equally that a different core is better.

viz a hi B, an amorphous, a nickel or cobalt sounds superior, JUST because its more permeable.

why should that make it sound better?


of course the materials are rarer, thus more expensive, giving the makers a reason to market them harder as they can make obscene prices, and its in there interest, but there is again no proof whatsover or there sonic advantage based on one electrical/magnetic parameter.

There is no proof these materials sound better than M6 silicon steel done properly.

all a tranny is,. is a core, an air gap if SE and a coil with insulation.

all it needs is significant interleaves to reach a defined spec.

the rest is pure magic. that's all there is to it.

a core, and a coil.

that's it.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 11:39 PM   #2
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But there are those who say "let your ear be the judge".
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Old 23rd April 2009, 12:22 AM   #3
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There are a few measures of core performance, for instance, loss v. frequency. I don't see why the lower loss Ni alloy(s) would be expected to sound the same as M6.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 12:40 AM   #4
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You are right to a certain extent. Common materials used by an experienced winder always sound better than poorly wound exotics. But give a master winder the best available for the circuit, and the results are stunning. There is a reason why Onetics and EPA demand higher prices, and its not just material usage.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 01:14 AM   #5
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RE: Silver Windings

You have to admit that lower DCR in the windings is a good thing and will improve performance. On the other hand you would have to be a fool to pay that much for such a small improvement as copper is also a really good conductor.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 02:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: transformer rubbish

Originally posted by lt cdr data

2/ there is no proof equally that a different core is better.
viz a hi B, an amorphous, a nickel or cobalt sounds superior, JUST because its more permeable.
why should that make it sound better?
There is no proof these materials sound better than M6 silicon steel done properly.
Your rant sounds like that of a hardcore straight-laced technophile having a bad hair day. I'm not a transformer manufacturer, but I know enough about them to be dangerous. To say that a transformer is simply a coil and a core is an oversimplification. And I'm sorry to have to say that this only shows you lack of knowledge on the subject.

I will not go into silver verses copper or conductor size verses sound quality. But I can tell you that core permeability affects efficiency if nothing else. The easier it is to magnetize the core the better the transfer of energy. This becomes particularly important where low level signals are concerned. It is logical to assume that for a wide varyng audio signal level, very low levels should be passed commensurate with the higher levels and not be attenuated through core inefficiencies. To say that core material cannot or doesn't effect sound quality is simply wrong.

Since every design facet of an audio transformer is a compromise of some degree or another, many choices must me made during development. The test of the final product is not solely measurments by instruments, but by listening. The "proof" is in the listening. The ear/brain mechanism is the final instrument that can detect differences electronics can't. And critical listening is a learned art that perhaps you have not mastered yet. I surely haven't. Hearing subtle differences takes practice through a system capable of resolving them.

If you cannot hear certain subtle differences, you are both blessed and cursed. Cursed because you will never know what you're missing. And blessed because you will be easily satisfied with lesser quality.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 08:34 AM   #7
Enzo is offline Enzo  United States
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You can look at the wire resistance in the transformer windings as resistors. That resistor would be in series between the output tube plate and the transformer primary winding. I don;t know about anyone else, but I think I would prefer a 10 ohm resistor over a 200 ohm one there. COnsider that aspect of wire size, etc.

Now if all you are building is table radios, then never mind.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 09:24 AM   #8
Colt45 is offline Colt45  Serbia
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There are a lot of more retarded things some folk around here believe
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Old 23rd April 2009, 09:28 AM   #9
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a core, and a coil.
That describes a choke, not a transformer.

The skill applied in winding a transformer to maximize coupling and minimize capacitance and leakage inductance is one of the most important factors that determine the efficiency and performance of the end product. So is the material and quality of the core.

If you deny these things, you are essentially saying that there is no significant difference in performance between transformers of the same nominal specifications, regardless of the materials and build quality. That goes against the experience of people who have found that transformer quality was crucial to the success of their amp dedsigns, e.g. Williamson and Macintosh.

I would agree, though, that silver wire is a waste of money. Also, I believe there is an optimum for any particular purpose that is not necessarily the most expensive product.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 10:19 AM   #10
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I don't understand why you first would say that transformer inductance makes a difference, then in your next breath insinuate that silver, which is 200% more permeable than copper, makes no difference. The secondary of a transformer is the place wire would make the most difference in the signal chain. Certainly, more than the difference silver interconnects or speaker cable could make combined.

I am also curious the fascination of cost, how much more is silver wound than copper? Is it really so much? Compared to your last cartridge or turntable purchase, some may view it a bargain, if only for resale value.
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