there's a lot of rubbish spouted about transformers
1/ There is absolutely no correlation between conductance/resistance of wire, and sound quality.
correlation, there is no proof silver wire sounds better, its simply more valuable in jewellery as its rarer and more expensive, there is no proof is sounds better.
2/ there is no proof equally that a different core is better.
viz a hi B, an amorphous, a nickel or cobalt sounds superior, JUST because its more permeable.
why should that make it sound better?
proof?
of course the materials are rarer, thus more expensive, giving the makers a reason to market them harder as they can make obscene prices, and its in there interest, but there is again no proof whatsover or there sonic advantage based on one electrical/magnetic parameter.
There is no proof these materials sound better than M6 silicon steel done properly.
all a tranny is,. is a core, an air gap if SE and a coil with insulation.
all it needs is significant interleaves to reach a defined spec.
the rest is pure magic. that's all there is to it.
a core, and a coil.
that's it.
1/ There is absolutely no correlation between conductance/resistance of wire, and sound quality.
correlation, there is no proof silver wire sounds better, its simply more valuable in jewellery as its rarer and more expensive, there is no proof is sounds better.
2/ there is no proof equally that a different core is better.
viz a hi B, an amorphous, a nickel or cobalt sounds superior, JUST because its more permeable.
why should that make it sound better?
proof?
of course the materials are rarer, thus more expensive, giving the makers a reason to market them harder as they can make obscene prices, and its in there interest, but there is again no proof whatsover or there sonic advantage based on one electrical/magnetic parameter.
There is no proof these materials sound better than M6 silicon steel done properly.
all a tranny is,. is a core, an air gap if SE and a coil with insulation.
all it needs is significant interleaves to reach a defined spec.
the rest is pure magic. that's all there is to it.
a core, and a coil.
that's it.
You are right to a certain extent. Common materials used by an experienced winder always sound better than poorly wound exotics. But give a master winder the best available for the circuit, and the results are stunning. There is a reason why Onetics and EPA demand higher prices, and its not just material usage.
lt cdr data said:
Your rant sounds like that of a hardcore straight-laced technophile having a bad hair day.
I'm not a transformer manufacturer, but I know enough about them to be dangerous. To say that a transformer is simply a coil and a core is an oversimplification. And I'm sorry to have to say that this only shows you lack of knowledge on the subject. I will not go into silver verses copper or conductor size verses sound quality. But I can tell you that core permeability affects efficiency if nothing else. The easier it is to magnetize the core the better the transfer of energy. This becomes particularly important where low level signals are concerned. It is logical to assume that for a wide varyng audio signal level, very low levels should be passed commensurate with the higher levels and not be attenuated through core inefficiencies. To say that core material cannot or doesn't effect sound quality is simply wrong.
Since every design facet of an audio transformer is a compromise of some degree or another, many choices must me made during development. The test of the final product is not solely measurments by instruments, but by listening. The "proof" is in the listening. The ear/brain mechanism is the final instrument that can detect differences electronics can't. And critical listening is a learned art that perhaps you have not mastered yet. I surely haven't. Hearing subtle differences takes practice through a system capable of resolving them.
If you cannot hear certain subtle differences, you are both blessed and cursed. Cursed because you will never know what you're missing. And blessed because you will be easily satisfied with lesser quality.
You can look at the wire resistance in the transformer windings as resistors. That resistor would be in series between the output tube plate and the transformer primary winding. I don;t know about anyone else, but I think I would prefer a 10 ohm resistor over a 200 ohm one there. COnsider that aspect of wire size, etc.
Now if all you are building is table radios, then never mind.
Now if all you are building is table radios, then never mind.
That describes a choke, not a transformer.
The skill applied in winding a transformer to maximize coupling and minimize capacitance and leakage inductance is one of the most important factors that determine the efficiency and performance of the end product. So is the material and quality of the core.
If you deny these things, you are essentially saying that there is no significant difference in performance between transformers of the same nominal specifications, regardless of the materials and build quality. That goes against the experience of people who have found that transformer quality was crucial to the success of their amp dedsigns, e.g. Williamson and Macintosh.
I would agree, though, that silver wire is a waste of money. Also, I believe there is an optimum for any particular purpose that is not necessarily the most expensive product.
I don't understand why you first would say that transformer inductance makes a difference, then in your next breath insinuate that silver, which is 200% more permeable than copper, makes no difference. The secondary of a transformer is the place wire would make the most difference in the signal chain. Certainly, more than the difference silver interconnects or speaker cable could make combined.
I am also curious the fascination of cost, how much more is silver wound than copper? Is it really so much? Compared to your last cartridge or turntable purchase, some may view it a bargain, if only for resale value.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=320354061152
I am also curious the fascination of cost, how much more is silver wound than copper? Is it really so much? Compared to your last cartridge or turntable purchase, some may view it a bargain, if only for resale value.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=320354061152
Silver has 5% lower resistivity than copper, and costs nearly 100 times as much ($175/pound vs. $2) for the raw metal (probably even more for wire, since copper wire is off-the-shelf...). And resistance is a linear effect - there's a consistent loss, but no distortion.
Magnetic materials AREN'T linear. Not at high levels, not at low levels, but they're linear enough that distortion can be minimized through a useful dynamic range with proper design. The parasitic inductance and capacitance of the windings must be dealt with in the circuit, and minimizing these parameters does complicate the design and construction.
Magnetic materials AREN'T linear. Not at high levels, not at low levels, but they're linear enough that distortion can be minimized through a useful dynamic range with proper design. The parasitic inductance and capacitance of the windings must be dealt with in the circuit, and minimizing these parameters does complicate the design and construction.
This page has plenty of good info and comparisons on silver and copper wire.
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
Were you replying to my post? If so, I think you're off the mark. I didn't mention iductance (unless you refer tomy mention of leakage iductance), nor did I say/insinuate that silver makes no difference. I do think, though, that silver wire is a waste of money, considering the small advantage gained. IMHO, copper is good enough for the job.
"lt cdr data" did make some sweeping statements and I don't agree with him on all points, but as far as silver wire is concerned I think he's correct.
Certainly there is room for transformer design improvements and audible improvements are an indication of the extent of these improvements. I'm sure there was a time where M6 silicon didn't exist and laminations were using pure Iron.
Its a matter of degrees....of diminishing returns. If pure silver wire can get you that one percent improvement then GO for it....It all adds up..slowly but surely.
Myself, I would experiment with ultra thin laminations, window dimensions and lamination shapes.
_______________________________________________Rick.......
Its a matter of degrees....of diminishing returns. If pure silver wire can get you that one percent improvement then GO for it....It all adds up..slowly but surely.
Myself, I would experiment with ultra thin laminations, window dimensions and lamination shapes.
_______________________________________________Rick.......
lt cdr data said:
Where did you get the idea that there is "no proof"? That's an awfully dogmatic statement there. Furthermore, this statement is a gross oversimplification.
An OPT won't sound better JUST because it has a high permeability core. What that high perm core does is allow you to achieve any given inductance with fewer turns. Fewer turns is a good thing in that it reduces the stray capacitance, and the increased coupling coefficient reduces leakage inductance. Less Cstray means that the coil's Q is improved for less phase shift at the upper end; less leakage inductance makes for less lossiness at the upper end. And that will improve sound quality where it counts: in the weakest link in the chain.
As for silver wire, I'm not sure that it's an improvement that counts, or whether this becomes a case of diminishing returns.
There are a lot of more retarded things some folk around here believe
with ultra low resistance wouldn't you get more microphonics with some tube types
such as greater flow between cathode and anode then cooling the heater setting up an oscillation within the tubes until it gets greater and greater then the parts within the tube start to short out, silver man no way.................................
I believe in cardon resistors on power side and someone give me some EL84s to hold so I feel safe.............etc etc gibber twee
with ultra low resistance wouldn't you get more microphonics with some tube types
such as greater flow between cathode and anode then cooling the heater setting up an oscillation within the tubes until it gets greater and greater then the parts within the tube start to short out, silver man no way.................................
I believe in cardon resistors on power side and someone give me some EL84s to hold so I feel safe.............etc etc gibber twee
Silver wire in a transformer is "rubbish"?
It is!
Because the only thing sligthly "better" in silver is heat transfer (wich doesnt count to much in a OPT).
Silver, or silverclad copper has only advantages when uncoated
(wich doesnt matter either).
It is now almost ten years since copper came on the market that has
the SAME conductivity than silver. Silver is NOT the best conductor anymore. HIGHLY REFINED COPPERGRADES ARE EQUAL TO SILVER NOW!
It is!
Because the only thing sligthly "better" in silver is heat transfer (wich doesnt count to much in a OPT).
Silver, or silverclad copper has only advantages when uncoated
(wich doesnt matter either).
It is now almost ten years since copper came on the market that has
the SAME conductivity than silver. Silver is NOT the best conductor anymore. HIGHLY REFINED COPPERGRADES ARE EQUAL TO SILVER NOW!
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