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Old 24th April 2003, 11:03 AM   #1
Wram is offline Wram  Brazil
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Smile Audio Note's Kit One done in point-to-point wiring

Hello people worldwide! I am just about to start building a Kit One from Audio Note. I want to give up with the kit's enclosed PCB's altogether, because a crude point-to-point wiring will improve the sound, and Kondo's amps are apparently built this way. Does anyone know whether I must keep the original physical layout of components (for noise or electromagnetic reasons), or does anyone suggest any possible improvements regarding construction techniques? I don't want to change the circuit, but I may for example try to avoid vibration, float all transformers, etc. I am interested in physical layout changes. Your opinions are welcome!
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Old 24th April 2003, 12:42 PM   #2
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Well,it depends on how much skilled you are in p-t-p wiring.
The idea on modifying an AN Kit One is OK,but bear in mind that the existent layout was choosen (more or less....) by paying atention of all the criteria you're already aware.
For sure,making a p-t-p wiring means a new set of passive components,since the ends of the resistors/capacitors already soldered on the PCB are cut short.
Instead of speculating on how to float transformers,etc,try the best possible improvement on Kit One:BUILD YOURSELF ANOTHER CHASSIS from 6~10 thick aluminium.The existent (original) chassis is,maybe,the worst component of the Kit.
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Old 25th April 2003, 08:34 PM   #3
Wram is offline Wram  Brazil
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Smile Audio Note's Kit One done in point-to-point wiring

Dear Le Basseur,
Many thanks for your helpful answer and tips.
I am sorry that I took some time to reply – I have been out for long.

I tell you that I am not at all skilled in p-t-p wiring (first time, in fact), and so I wonder if there would exist any ‘secrets’ concerning it (soldering, etc.) that would differ much from the traditional technique, because I may not be aware of those. How should a good p-t-p wiring be carried out? I guess the new layout can be made to be not much different from the traditional one, or can’t it? I know I must avoid right angles between components, as this is maybe a universal criterion. Due to the fact that the PCB itself imposes physical layout constraints because of its tracing, we certainly have more freedom when we go p-t-p.

Coincidentally, I did build a different chassis already, but I only cared about the material – I used copper, and it was not feasible then to have had it made thick. Of course the consideration here was electromagnetic, but I did not think about vibration. Yours is a good idea, but unfortunately it is over now. Do you think I should reinforce the chassis internally by using another material? What I can do for vibration purposes is to float the transformer physically (not electrically !) on springs and damp resonance. Sometimes it seems to me it might be easier to try to absorb vibration (partially) as well as possible instead of trying to eliminate it completely by sheer rigidity and ruggedness. (The latter concept usually doesn’t work as well as intended, in my experience)

I may also route all tube heater wiring away from vital audio circuits, avoiding contamination problems. I may keep passive components close to the copper chassis. I may use centralized earthing in star-like fashion.

Any ideas? What do you think about these suggestions?
Hoping to hear your comments.
Thanks.
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Old 25th April 2003, 10:36 PM   #4
EC8010 is offline EC8010  United Kingdom
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Default Point to point is hard

If I understand you correctly, you have an unused PCB, and components to fit it. The whole point of a PCB is that it allows you to design a good layout that is repeatable. However, in these days of autorouters, it is possible that a given PCB layout may not be optimum. Against this is the question of whether you can do a better job on your first attempt at point to point wiring.

If you want to do this as a learning exercise, then, by all means, go for point to point. If the amplifier has to work, use the PCB. Perhaps, as a halfway house, you could use the PCB in such a way that it can be easily removed (and replaced), then experiment with point to point.

I use both methods. (Often in the same amplifier.)

Right angles between components reduce capacitance, and are a good thing. Theoretically, point to point gives more freedom because you can use three dimensions instead of two. In practice, whether your components are made for PCB mounting, or not, has more influence.

Heater wiring is always best done hardwired.
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Old 25th April 2003, 11:09 PM   #5
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Default P2P

Hi,

Quote:
Against this is the question of whether you can do a better job on your first attempt at point to point wiring.
Sorry to disagree, I find P2P actually very easy to work with...once you get the hang of it.

One of the advantaage of the technique is that you can change layout 'till you have exactly what you want.

Having experience is of course a bonus but we all have to start somewhere.
I've been defending this technique before, especially for DIY, for it sounds better when done right and it's alot easier to repair/upgrade than PCBs.

Quote:
Heater wiring is always best done hardwired.
Indeed, and best kept separate from the signal carrying leads.

Here are some items you need for P2P:

Soldertags of various lenghts.


Solderlugs for earthing purposes.

Stand-offs for the soldertags.

Horizontal mounting clamps for PSU caps (if they're clamp mount devices).

Some easily plied metalsheet and a drill and punch for the sockets.

I've no idea wether RS is selling in Bresil but they carry all you may possibly need for this and more.

Cheers,
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Old 25th April 2003, 11:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: P2P

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Having experience is of course a bonus but we all have to start somewhere... ...for it (P2P) sounds better when done right and it's a lot easier to repair/upgrade than PCBs.
Designing and making PCBs requires considerable confidence, whereas point to point makes modification easy. Both take time to learn.

Those are interesting capacitors, Frank, what are they?
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Old 25th April 2003, 11:32 PM   #7
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Default CAPS

Hi,

Those are silverfoil caps made by Silvertone (I think the name was), they ceased production a while ago or so I've been told.

I think our friend Peter Daniel picked up the remaining stock from Partsconnexion.

Peter likes them a lot from what I read and so do I.

Maybe you can still find some in the U.K. and if you do I'd appreciate if you let us know.

Cheers,
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Old 26th April 2003, 12:58 AM   #8
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Default A ROOM WITH A VIEW...

Hi,

A better pic of what P2P usually looks like:

BTW, since you're a Paulista...I know of some nice sources for tubes right down in Sao Paolo.

An RCA tube manual was given to me for free when visiting that part of the city, no kidding.

Cheers,

P.S.The picture is a Croft Super Micro after undergoing some surgeory.
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Old 26th April 2003, 10:46 AM   #9
Wram is offline Wram  Brazil
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I must say the pictures are quite interesting and show what p-t-p is about. It wouldn't be much difficult to change whatever could go wrong !

Thanks for such clarifying example.

I live in São Paulo and would like to know about the local address you mention, please.
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Old 26th April 2003, 10:56 PM   #10
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Default PAULISTAS...

Hi,

Quote:
I live in São Paulo and would like to know about the local address you mention, please.
Stayed in the hotel most of the time in Sao....I didn't want to be mugged...

Look for the part of the city where all the electronic shops are.

I can get details but for that I'd really need to dig into the company archives, I visited companies in Sao P and in Rio, after that I flew to Santiago de Chile...and back to the girls in Rio.

Anyway, testosterone aside I'll browse through the files and if lucky you may get some detail by Tuesday.

Ciao,
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