guys - i am not smart here...
i have came accross two different version of 6N6P tube...
one is without "-I" and the other has its full name 6N6P-I.... it seems that the one with the "-I" is made to work in a impulse mode....
the question is this - can i use 6N6P-I the same way as 6N6P tube??... are they the same or are there any differences??... what are the differences??..... i don't get it....
thanks in advance.... many regards
daniel
datasheets...
6N6P-I
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/112/6/6N6PI.pdf
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/113/6/6N6PI.pdf
6N6P:
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/113/6/6N6P.pdf
i have came accross two different version of 6N6P tube...
one is without "-I" and the other has its full name 6N6P-I.... it seems that the one with the "-I" is made to work in a impulse mode....
the question is this - can i use 6N6P-I the same way as 6N6P tube??... are they the same or are there any differences??... what are the differences??..... i don't get it....
thanks in advance.... many regards
daniel
datasheets...
6N6P-I
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/112/6/6N6PI.pdf
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/113/6/6N6PI.pdf
6N6P:
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/113/6/6N6P.pdf
They are basically the same tube, but characteriozed differently. The I variant is for impulse operation so it's curves indicate positive grid voltages. Because of this it is also not tested for microphonics and noise as these parameters are of no importance for audio. As a result, the i variant MAY be as good as the regular variant but this will vary between samples greatly. If you want to be sure, use the regular one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tube_designations
"H" for N, Double Triode.
"П" for P or Pi. Small Glass Envelope.
"И" for I, Pulsed operation
Perhaps sometimes Pi might be mistranslated PI???
"H" for N, Double Triode.
"П" for P or Pi. Small Glass Envelope.
"И" for I, Pulsed operation
Perhaps sometimes Pi might be mistranslated PI???
i have been searching on the net.....
ilimzn was right - as usual
"I" version is for pulse operation - and also it is 500 hours variation of the tube.... the one without the "I" is the one that can be used 2000 hours....
it seems that "I" one is no good for me.... to bad.... i will play with it when i catch the time - to see if those two will be good in line... and in future i will try to find only plain 6N6P versions......
thanks guys.....
ilimzn was right - as usual
"I" version is for pulse operation - and also it is 500 hours variation of the tube.... the one without the "I" is the one that can be used 2000 hours....
it seems that "I" one is no good for me.... to bad.... i will play with it when i catch the time - to see if those two will be good in line... and in future i will try to find only plain 6N6P versions......
thanks guys.....
This conversation is about the Russian "supertubes", so I'm using the word to indicate the usual identifier, because it has not been mentioned. I'm also using lower case Roman letters in the valve types, to indicate that they replace the Cyrillic designators.
Neither type was designed for audio applications, but they are eminently suited to audio use.
The 6n6p was the original "supertube". The Russians discontinued production and introduced a range of valves, including the 6n28p and the 6n30p, to replace it in their standard applications.
Somewhere along the line, it was found that the 6n6p is audio useful - and it was cheap, because it was discontinued. After a while, someone else realised that the successor to the 6n6p, the 6n30p, was also audio useful, for the reason that it is a development of the 6n6p design. Which is why audiophiles now seek out the 6n30p ... it was in recent production, and is still available.
Pulse mode valves are not intended for audio use, but can be useful. You have to try them in your application, and see if they are noisy - sometimes they are, sometimes they are not = a GOOD THING. They generally have a lower life specification than the standard type, but that is because the life is specified for the extreme voltages of pulse mode operation - eg. 500h for a pulse mode 6n2p-i as against 4000h for a 6n2p-e . The pulse valve invariably has a different specification, if you can't find that spec you can "look and see" as John Major would say.
Russian tube postscripts - for general info -
no postscript - generally 1kh valve, usually live longer.
e (E) - rugged construction, heavy glass - you can usually drop the valve and it will survive, extended lifetime - but look at the spec to find out how much, usually 3k-4kh .
v (B) - military specification, usually indicates a higher heater current than the standard spec , which gives better S/N ratio. May also indicate different compliance, like anode impedance - check it out.
d (can't do equivalent to that) - the Holy Grail, the Russian code for a 10M tube - 10kh life.
r (P) selected for low noise.
i (N sideways) - pulse mode operation, anode conditions may vary radically from "normally designated" valves, always a much shorter guaranteed life in comparison to the standard type, but can be useful.
So what we all really really want to find for supertube purposes are 6n30p-dr , the do exist, I almost bought some once.
What fascinates me, though, is that Chinese audiophile amps, inside China, always seem to feature Chinese 6N5 tubes. The Chinese got their original valve technology from the Russians, and a Chinese 6N5 should resemble a Russian 6n5p, which the Russians discontinued around 1971. I can't help feeling we are all missing out on something ...
Neither type was designed for audio applications, but they are eminently suited to audio use.
The 6n6p was the original "supertube". The Russians discontinued production and introduced a range of valves, including the 6n28p and the 6n30p, to replace it in their standard applications.
Somewhere along the line, it was found that the 6n6p is audio useful - and it was cheap, because it was discontinued. After a while, someone else realised that the successor to the 6n6p, the 6n30p, was also audio useful, for the reason that it is a development of the 6n6p design. Which is why audiophiles now seek out the 6n30p ... it was in recent production, and is still available.
Pulse mode valves are not intended for audio use, but can be useful. You have to try them in your application, and see if they are noisy - sometimes they are, sometimes they are not = a GOOD THING. They generally have a lower life specification than the standard type, but that is because the life is specified for the extreme voltages of pulse mode operation - eg. 500h for a pulse mode 6n2p-i as against 4000h for a 6n2p-e . The pulse valve invariably has a different specification, if you can't find that spec you can "look and see" as John Major would say.
Russian tube postscripts - for general info -
no postscript - generally 1kh valve, usually live longer.
e (E) - rugged construction, heavy glass - you can usually drop the valve and it will survive, extended lifetime - but look at the spec to find out how much, usually 3k-4kh .
v (B) - military specification, usually indicates a higher heater current than the standard spec , which gives better S/N ratio. May also indicate different compliance, like anode impedance - check it out.
d (can't do equivalent to that) - the Holy Grail, the Russian code for a 10M tube - 10kh life.
r (P) selected for low noise.
i (N sideways) - pulse mode operation, anode conditions may vary radically from "normally designated" valves, always a much shorter guaranteed life in comparison to the standard type, but can be useful.
So what we all really really want to find for supertube purposes are 6n30p-dr , the do exist, I almost bought some once.
What fascinates me, though, is that Chinese audiophile amps, inside China, always seem to feature Chinese 6N5 tubes. The Chinese got their original valve technology from the Russians, and a Chinese 6N5 should resemble a Russian 6n5p, which the Russians discontinued around 1971. I can't help feeling we are all missing out on something ...
dotfret said:
6N5P was like 6N3P with 6N1P/6N2P pinout (pretty similar to 6N3P).
It was used in radar systems.
6N6P was used in computers, particularly my father in law run such computers in Academy of Sciences for biological research.
From what I remember about additional letters,
"В" (V) means better reliability and mechanical ruggedness,
- лампы повышенной надежности и механической прочности
"Д" (D) -- 10,000 hours of life guarranteed if used in specs,
"Е" (E) -- the same, but up to 5,000 hours guarranteed;
"И" (i) -- higher cathode emission for more current in pulse modes,
"К" (K) -- made for vibrating environments,
"Р" (R) -- especially specified reliability and mechanical ruggedness, superior to V
"ЕВ" (EV) -- higher reliability, longer life and mechanical ruggedness.
"ДР" (DR) -- like EV, but especially specified reliability.
However, that words mean not too much, to see corresponding parameters you had to read GOST and Ministry regulations that were available for developers.
Dobro, Sparkle -
There are a lot of Russian types that really are worth extra investigation. I have no experience of the 6n28p and 6n29p, but I know I have found references in the past which suggest they will be useful for audio, like the Chinese 6N5, which is a version of the Russian 6n5p, which in our case we have not got.
I know data is sparse, but we should encourage people to distribute the info. The Russian 6n23p design beats those CCa types into the dust, and is still produced from time to time in Voskhod (I have some from 2005 production). Just don't give them too much negative grid bias, or the microphonics get intolerable. Up to -6V is ok ...
I am sure that, if demand is there, the Russians will supply -and give of their best.
There are a lot of Russian types that really are worth extra investigation. I have no experience of the 6n28p and 6n29p, but I know I have found references in the past which suggest they will be useful for audio, like the Chinese 6N5, which is a version of the Russian 6n5p, which in our case we have not got.
I know data is sparse, but we should encourage people to distribute the info. The Russian 6n23p design beats those CCa types into the dust, and is still produced from time to time in Voskhod (I have some from 2005 production). Just don't give them too much negative grid bias, or the microphonics get intolerable. Up to -6V is ok ...
I am sure that, if demand is there, the Russians will supply -and give of their best.
You are generally correct there - I merely want to adjust your viewpoint about the "combination subscripts" and thank you for reminding me that K is for vibration-proofing (useful if flying a MIG-23).
v (B) means military specification (resistant to mechanical effects, as you put it in Russki, but that is the propaganda description for E - and if a valve merits a v designation, it almost always is E) - it can be a distinctly different type, if you want to go into the Miller impedance effects resulting from different anode designs. The Soviet regime was a "do not rock the boat" system, so people worked with what they had, and tried to make things fit inside the formal notation when it was laid down. Which is why the anode resistor specification for a 6n2p-ev is so much lower than for a 6n2p-e - and also why the 6n23p works best with a grid bias of about -3.5V to 4.5V, when the spec says -8V ish. Another example of a lower anode resistance, the 6n23p-ev compared to the 6n23p - but the usual implication of the v designation is that the heater current is higher than the standard specification, which gives better signal to noise ratio.
e (E) means rugged construction and extended life, but does not designate a specific lifetime specification. The lifetime of e designated valves is always over 1000h, but varies according to the specificaton. Sometimes it is 3kh, most often it is 4kh, once in a while it is 2kh or less. 5kh and you are a believer!
This is a reference with many gaps, but it is the best I know of, online -
http://www.mif.pg.gdl.pl/homepages/frank/other/Mashpriborintorg/index.html
It is a Soviet catalogue of valves for sale to the decadent capitalist western world, and in typical CCP fashion, it leaves the best types out! Whatever, if you examine the specs in that catalogue, you will see that the rugged spec valves do not have a specific consistent lifetime -it varies somewhat.
It is not a fair thing to say that a 6n5p is like a 6n3p with different pin-out. That is like saying a 6n1p is the same as a 6n23p, ignoring the fact that a 6n1p consumes double the heater current of a 6n23p. I have some Russian made 12AX7, which are really 6n2p with a customised pin-out. Would I substitute them for a 12BZ7? I don't think so ... I'm just pointing out how silly it can get.
Or like saying that a 6p3s is a 6L6 equivalent - which is actually a good example of the vagaries within the E-W systems. There are Russian 6p3s which are 6L6 copies, and others which are Soviet original designs, with different specs - you can plug them in the socket, and they work, but the system does not sound the same as with the Western design 6L6, whether Russian design or Soviet copy - the soviet original design has something to give to the world.
A 6p3s is very similar to a 6L6, when plugged into the same socket it will work - but there are several varieties of the 6L6, and they do not all handle high power. 6L6 is comfortable at 12W output, 6881 up to 18W, 6L6GC up to about 22W - anode dissipation is the key there.
Some Russian 6p3s are copies of 6L6, and work well in the right applcations. But the Russians had several designs, which varied from factory to factory. All are electrically equivalent to the 6L6, but some have better power handling, and are capable of 6881 or 6L6GC performance. Some are electronic equivalents of the 6L6GC, but you have to plug them in and see if they stand the burden, or just go "red-plate". Some are superstar ...
Buy your 6p3s-e on eBay and see if they work in your amp - they work in my amp!
Since John Martyn, the original proponent of the "one world" philosophical approach, died last week, it is a very appropriate time to share knowledge and offer what we have to our fellows.
I am giving what I know ...
v (B) means military specification (resistant to mechanical effects, as you put it in Russki, but that is the propaganda description for E - and if a valve merits a v designation, it almost always is E) - it can be a distinctly different type, if you want to go into the Miller impedance effects resulting from different anode designs. The Soviet regime was a "do not rock the boat" system, so people worked with what they had, and tried to make things fit inside the formal notation when it was laid down. Which is why the anode resistor specification for a 6n2p-ev is so much lower than for a 6n2p-e - and also why the 6n23p works best with a grid bias of about -3.5V to 4.5V, when the spec says -8V ish. Another example of a lower anode resistance, the 6n23p-ev compared to the 6n23p - but the usual implication of the v designation is that the heater current is higher than the standard specification, which gives better signal to noise ratio.
e (E) means rugged construction and extended life, but does not designate a specific lifetime specification. The lifetime of e designated valves is always over 1000h, but varies according to the specificaton. Sometimes it is 3kh, most often it is 4kh, once in a while it is 2kh or less. 5kh and you are a believer!
This is a reference with many gaps, but it is the best I know of, online -
http://www.mif.pg.gdl.pl/homepages/frank/other/Mashpriborintorg/index.html
It is a Soviet catalogue of valves for sale to the decadent capitalist western world, and in typical CCP fashion, it leaves the best types out! Whatever, if you examine the specs in that catalogue, you will see that the rugged spec valves do not have a specific consistent lifetime -it varies somewhat.
It is not a fair thing to say that a 6n5p is like a 6n3p with different pin-out. That is like saying a 6n1p is the same as a 6n23p, ignoring the fact that a 6n1p consumes double the heater current of a 6n23p. I have some Russian made 12AX7, which are really 6n2p with a customised pin-out. Would I substitute them for a 12BZ7? I don't think so ... I'm just pointing out how silly it can get.
Or like saying that a 6p3s is a 6L6 equivalent - which is actually a good example of the vagaries within the E-W systems. There are Russian 6p3s which are 6L6 copies, and others which are Soviet original designs, with different specs - you can plug them in the socket, and they work, but the system does not sound the same as with the Western design 6L6, whether Russian design or Soviet copy - the soviet original design has something to give to the world.
A 6p3s is very similar to a 6L6, when plugged into the same socket it will work - but there are several varieties of the 6L6, and they do not all handle high power. 6L6 is comfortable at 12W output, 6881 up to 18W, 6L6GC up to about 22W - anode dissipation is the key there.
Some Russian 6p3s are copies of 6L6, and work well in the right applcations. But the Russians had several designs, which varied from factory to factory. All are electrically equivalent to the 6L6, but some have better power handling, and are capable of 6881 or 6L6GC performance. Some are electronic equivalents of the 6L6GC, but you have to plug them in and see if they stand the burden, or just go "red-plate". Some are superstar ...
Buy your 6p3s-e on eBay and see if they work in your amp - they work in my amp!
Since John Martyn, the original proponent of the "one world" philosophical approach, died last week, it is a very appropriate time to share knowledge and offer what we have to our fellows.
I am giving what I know ...
I did not know John Martyn, and am sorry about his death, but I got my Master's degree in EE graduating TIASUR (Tomsk, Russia), so can give you some information as a former insider of that country and it's Electronics industry. First of all, if you wanted to say, "Well, Sparkle", you should use "Horosho" world instead of "Dobro", that means "Kindness, Sparkle".
dotfret said:
thanks for the nice info....very usefull.....
dotfret said:
oh yes...!!! i have a lot of 12 pieces of the 6P3S-E ... and they are my nexto project.... Berglund amplifier from S. Practices but run as a beam tetrode in ultralinear mode....
hehehehehehehdriver will be 6n8c and input is EF86 NOS from Tesla.....
hehehehehehWavebourn said:
i do not know what "HOROSHO" means, but i do know what "DOBRO" means - it is a word that describe that something IS GOOD.... so "Dobro Sparkle" can be also translated like - "o.k. Sparkle", or "I understood you Sparkle" or similar - depending upon the rest of the sentence........ i am croatian and that "dobro" word is croatian
hehehehe..... thanks.......Let me, as a witness, tell you? How was early and there are now so-called "Russian" tubes?
In general in the Russian tube stories need to distinguish between the two periods. Prior to Gorbachev. And after.
Before Gorbachev the tube are made in factories under strict government control. But still, it how could they have done. Happened, gained enough not bad. As 6N12C, 6N30p-DR, 6N1P and is little of others. But on general it was gained "as always".
In the period following Gorbachev the tubes in Russia began to produce anyone who like myself and who as has wanted. Or, as has been able to do. From the improvised materials. Or what will be able to get. But turns out again "as always".
In the modern period of history to reproduce a tube 6N30P-DR it is primely impossible. Because the Soviet factories which had to make special alloys, were closed from needlessness during Gorbachev and Eltzin period. And the equipment sold for scrap metal to China. Therefore, the most cunning businessmen produce similar 6N6P, but call it 6N30P. At least without a DR.
6N6P-I sounds as muddy as the 6N6P. Yes, in Soviet times it was used in the computing capacity of strategic missile guidance. And in the most important directions))) have used the very fine sounding Soviet 6N30P-DR.
))
This is an example of "as always"(Soviet period, before and Gorbachev):
In general in the Russian tube stories need to distinguish between the two periods. Prior to Gorbachev. And after.
Before Gorbachev the tube are made in factories under strict government control. But still, it how could they have done. Happened, gained enough not bad. As 6N12C, 6N30p-DR, 6N1P and is little of others. But on general it was gained "as always".
In the period following Gorbachev the tubes in Russia began to produce anyone who like myself and who as has wanted. Or, as has been able to do. From the improvised materials. Or what will be able to get. But turns out again "as always".
In the modern period of history to reproduce a tube 6N30P-DR it is primely impossible. Because the Soviet factories which had to make special alloys, were closed from needlessness during Gorbachev and Eltzin period. And the equipment sold for scrap metal to China. Therefore, the most cunning businessmen produce similar 6N6P, but call it 6N30P. At least without a DR.
6N6P-I sounds as muddy as the 6N6P. Yes, in Soviet times it was used in the computing capacity of strategic missile guidance. And in the most important directions))) have used the very fine sounding Soviet 6N30P-DR.
))
This is an example of "as always"(Soviet period, before and Gorbachev):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
so Vlauga - you sugest not to search for 6n6p at all but to go strait to 6n30p-dr.... i understand it - very good tube for a bit more money ...... thnx for the reply.....
still if i have to search for 6n6p - it is better to look the ones before the 80' period....right?? when they started to produce them anyway (6n6p and 6n30p)?????
still if i have to search for 6n6p - it is better to look the ones before the 80' period....right?? when they started to produce them anyway (6n6p and 6n30p)?????