Counterpoint SA-3 Upgrades
Hi, I have a Counterpoint SA-3 and SA-5000 preamps that I have modified. There is a post on Audiogon at about June this year that details most of the saga. The results of the SA-5000 upgrade is spectacular and continues to amaze as it burns in. You will find a lot of good info on the Alta Vista web pages that Michael Elliot has kindly archived. Sorry but I cannot attach links on this forum, but search on web.archive.org/web 20140419114821. If that doesn't work you may email me at tattler70@gmail.com, and I can send you other links. Do you have a schematic? You can download a service manual. The SA-3 is a little gem, but the SA-5000 is in a different league, with the tube regulated PSU. If you want a seriously good preamp, I would look for a SA-5 as it is not as complicated as the SA-5000, and probably sounds better.
Hi, I have a Counterpoint SA-3 and SA-5000 preamps that I have modified. There is a post on Audiogon at about June this year that details most of the saga. The results of the SA-5000 upgrade is spectacular and continues to amaze as it burns in. You will find a lot of good info on the Alta Vista web pages that Michael Elliot has kindly archived. Sorry but I cannot attach links on this forum, but search on web.archive.org/web 20140419114821. If that doesn't work you may email me at tattler70@gmail.com, and I can send you other links. Do you have a schematic? You can download a service manual. The SA-3 is a little gem, but the SA-5000 is in a different league, with the tube regulated PSU. If you want a seriously good preamp, I would look for a SA-5 as it is not as complicated as the SA-5000, and probably sounds better.
Hi ozdiyer,
I've also modified the SA-5000 and SA-5.1. Both sets of modifications raise the standard of sound quality considerably. I was mostly concerned with the failure mechanisms and background noise. One thing is clear, the modified SA-5000 destroys the SA-5.1 easily, even though both required a lot of work done. This is both with measurements and listening tests by other people. I can't be objective so I refrain from comments before listening tests. The modified SA-5.1 is much better than most other preamplifiers on the market - so is no slouch either.
You should know that the SA-5000 isn't a tube only power supply. It uses a transistor as a preregulator so the tubes don't die a horrible death. It would perform better with another transistor regulator rather than the poor 6DJ8 tubes it uses as pass tubes. That design was really a way to get rid of piles of 6DJ8 tubes that were too noisy to be used in the audio path. If he didn't have so many useless 6DJ8's around, we'd probably see another 6GC5 (?) used as a pass tube. A 6BQ5 would have been a good choice there as well.
Anyway, when modifying Counterpoint products, the emphasis should be on making them more reliable. Better sound comes along for the ride. After it is stabilized you can worry about how they sound. A modified SA-5000 is the best sounding tube preamplifier now with the folks who listen to those things. I have to admit I wouldn't mind owning one myself.
-Chris
I've also modified the SA-5000 and SA-5.1. Both sets of modifications raise the standard of sound quality considerably. I was mostly concerned with the failure mechanisms and background noise. One thing is clear, the modified SA-5000 destroys the SA-5.1 easily, even though both required a lot of work done. This is both with measurements and listening tests by other people. I can't be objective so I refrain from comments before listening tests. The modified SA-5.1 is much better than most other preamplifiers on the market - so is no slouch either.
You should know that the SA-5000 isn't a tube only power supply. It uses a transistor as a preregulator so the tubes don't die a horrible death. It would perform better with another transistor regulator rather than the poor 6DJ8 tubes it uses as pass tubes. That design was really a way to get rid of piles of 6DJ8 tubes that were too noisy to be used in the audio path. If he didn't have so many useless 6DJ8's around, we'd probably see another 6GC5 (?) used as a pass tube. A 6BQ5 would have been a good choice there as well.
Anyway, when modifying Counterpoint products, the emphasis should be on making them more reliable. Better sound comes along for the ride. After it is stabilized you can worry about how they sound. A modified SA-5000 is the best sounding tube preamplifier now with the folks who listen to those things. I have to admit I wouldn't mind owning one myself.
-Chris
I've tried 3 amps so far. B&K ST-140, Adcom 555 and 535mk2. I have also installed the Electro-harmonix 6922EH tubes you suggested. I just purchased the 3.1 one week ago and I'm still trying to get use to it compared to my vintage pioneer sa-8500 ii integrated. The mid and high frequencies in the 3.1 are incredible making the lower frequencies seem lacking. Maybe I'm just not use to it yet.
My plan is to use the 3.1 in a bi-amp system with a Marchand XM-44 active crossover and the Adcom 535mk2 running mids/treble and the 555 for bass. I have everything here but not all hooked up yet. I realize the Adcom's are not that great but it's all I have right now.
Hi AmpUtator,
Okay, you're good as far as that preamp is concerned. What you need to know is that tube preamps have high output impedance and will suffer from this problem if you drive solid state amplifiers with them. In our area, idiotic pairs were common One being a Counterpoint paired with a Bryston of all things. Of course there were problems.
I was 99% certain you were going to say this. You did. The Counterpoint should drive the Marchand okay since it has a 100 K input impedance. Higher would have been better with a tube preamp. The SA-5.1 has lower output impedance, and the SA-5000 would drive solid state amplifiers just fine. It has buffered outputs. So your SA-3.1 was probably the worst choice for that situation. Take heart in the knowledge that your Marchand should be better. The highs should be cleaner, and maybe it's partially the tonal balance you're also hearing. More highs can sound like poorer bass.
The SA-3.1 has an iffy high voltage regulator that is easy to blow up. Make certain that the HV supply is discharged before changing tubes. High AC voltage will be a real problem. I'm designing a much better regulator for mine that requires a support and entirely new (added) PCB. It will be closer to an SA-5000 power supply when done. You can't drop that much voltage with one transistor. They tend to blow up, and there is no better replacement.
-Chris
Okay, you're good as far as that preamp is concerned. What you need to know is that tube preamps have high output impedance and will suffer from this problem if you drive solid state amplifiers with them. In our area, idiotic pairs were common One being a Counterpoint paired with a Bryston of all things. Of course there were problems.
I was 99% certain you were going to say this. You did. The Counterpoint should drive the Marchand okay since it has a 100 K input impedance. Higher would have been better with a tube preamp. The SA-5.1 has lower output impedance, and the SA-5000 would drive solid state amplifiers just fine. It has buffered outputs. So your SA-3.1 was probably the worst choice for that situation. Take heart in the knowledge that your Marchand should be better. The highs should be cleaner, and maybe it's partially the tonal balance you're also hearing. More highs can sound like poorer bass.
The SA-3.1 has an iffy high voltage regulator that is easy to blow up. Make certain that the HV supply is discharged before changing tubes. High AC voltage will be a real problem. I'm designing a much better regulator for mine that requires a support and entirely new (added) PCB. It will be closer to an SA-5000 power supply when done. You can't drop that much voltage with one transistor. They tend to blow up, and there is no better replacement.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I welcome your comments on the Counterpoint SA-5.1 and SA5000. I will look into replacing the E88CC pass tubes.
My next project is to bypass the balance pots and replace the gain pot with a DACT attenuator, using 0.25 wire wrap wire for the audio signal, point to point, bypassing the PCB tracks.
Regards Paul
I welcome your comments on the Counterpoint SA-5.1 and SA5000. I will look into replacing the E88CC pass tubes.
My next project is to bypass the balance pots and replace the gain pot with a DACT attenuator, using 0.25 wire wrap wire for the audio signal, point to point, bypassing the PCB tracks.
Regards Paul
Hi Paul,
The trim controls do have a use. They are intended to remain at full with the exception of the louder channel which is turned down a smidge. The bypass jobs I've seen aren't really bypassed. You would have to remove all wires to the controls and short across.
I don't agree with how this function was designed, it should have been a kind of signal trim inside. The channel full up has metallic connection right across. The other channel only has a slight amount of resistance if it was adjusted properly. I don't use this type of control in my designs as the feedback tends to equalize gain. The tubes aren't run wide open like Counterpoint does.
The pass tubes really only matter that they are matched between each other and each section. I think he wanted a 5% match between all the sections. It might have been looser, I can't remember. When I do one, I get 5% or better using Electroharmonix. All that really matters is that the sections share current equally.
Note that the HV regulator in the SA-5000 tends to be unstable and can be a little noisy. I had to redesign the outboard supply and the regulator. If it eats 12AX7's, that's the other design issue. It's a major redesign that changes the circuit diagram. The main PCB has to come out to do it. Look around the 12AX7 area in the schematic. If you don't see the issues, I'll have to redo it for you. Of course the old distributor is extremely good fixing this brand. He and I have talked a fair amount and I can vouch for his work. This goes beyond a DIY type of fix. His first name is Alan, so try to find him. He might have been based in NZ, I can't remember now.
Best, Chris
The trim controls do have a use. They are intended to remain at full with the exception of the louder channel which is turned down a smidge. The bypass jobs I've seen aren't really bypassed. You would have to remove all wires to the controls and short across.
I don't agree with how this function was designed, it should have been a kind of signal trim inside. The channel full up has metallic connection right across. The other channel only has a slight amount of resistance if it was adjusted properly. I don't use this type of control in my designs as the feedback tends to equalize gain. The tubes aren't run wide open like Counterpoint does.
The pass tubes really only matter that they are matched between each other and each section. I think he wanted a 5% match between all the sections. It might have been looser, I can't remember. When I do one, I get 5% or better using Electroharmonix. All that really matters is that the sections share current equally.
Note that the HV regulator in the SA-5000 tends to be unstable and can be a little noisy. I had to redesign the outboard supply and the regulator. If it eats 12AX7's, that's the other design issue. It's a major redesign that changes the circuit diagram. The main PCB has to come out to do it. Look around the 12AX7 area in the schematic. If you don't see the issues, I'll have to redo it for you. Of course the old distributor is extremely good fixing this brand. He and I have talked a fair amount and I can vouch for his work. This goes beyond a DIY type of fix. His first name is Alan, so try to find him. He might have been based in NZ, I can't remember now.
Best, Chris
Hi Chris,
We spoke via PM not too long ago. I've been pretty good, employed again for the last year, after about a year off
I had gotten rid of the SA5.1 and bought a Pass Aleph P. Sold that when I was unemployed and now using a Classe (don't remember the model right now).
BTW, how are the SA3000s? Interesting about the SA5000s, because I recall you didn't used to think too much of them. Fixed, they must be pretty good? The only ones I've seen for sale are insanely priced.
We spoke via PM not too long ago. I've been pretty good, employed again for the last year, after about a year off
I had gotten rid of the SA5.1 and bought a Pass Aleph P. Sold that when I was unemployed and now using a Classe (don't remember the model right now).
BTW, how are the SA3000s? Interesting about the SA5000s, because I recall you didn't used to think too much of them. Fixed, they must be pretty good? The only ones I've seen for sale are insanely priced.
Hi Chris,
I'm really glad to hear you have another job. How is it?
I'm not sure about the SA-2000 and 3000 models. I'm going to be going through those next year and probably improve the heck out of them. Don't go anywhere near an SA-3.1. Huge power supply regulator problems. I'm talking needs a complete redesign and an added PCB & heat sink. Nasty design has the pass transistor right on the SOA curve. The regulator was compromised from efforts to keep the pass transistor alive. The worst design I have ever seen before. A new transformer would solve those issues.
The redone SA-5000 is fantastic compared to a stock or other modified versions. It's rock stable now, has very, very little background noise and the audio is cleaner. I return the unit to stock, factory trim, then modify it from that point. It gets all new coupling capacitors and decoupling capacitors. Guess what? Mine fit properly too! As I was saying, I make fundamental changes to the basic design of the regulator and change some operating points. It comes out with a very clean, but still Counterpoint sound. I'm very happy with the unit after the work, but it is a ton of work. I also solved the eating of phono tubes and destruction of the 12AX7 error amp in the regulator. Fun and games. It's also a lot more forgiving of different AC mains voltages.
The SA-5000 is one of the better preamplifiers I have heard after the mod. Before they are okay, but can be temperamental. If you can find one that hasn't been messed with, it'll cost you about $1K to have me do it. It is a massive amount of work that takes me around three days to complete and install a bucket of new parts.
I did one that another tech had destroyed. When a friend heard it afterwards, he immediately came in with his for the same work. What I'm told is that I charge a lot less than Michael Elliot ever did, and it really sounds much better. I'll agree with the last bit since I have heard the before and after. The best tubes for these are the Electroharmonix 6922EH. Against my better judgement, I also do the mod so you can use a 6BW4 rectifier. The work I do negates the need for this change for the most part. My friend likes that rectifier along with the changes I make. I'll take a 6CA4, thank you very much.
I'm really glad to hear you have another job. How is it?
I'm not sure about the SA-2000 and 3000 models. I'm going to be going through those next year and probably improve the heck out of them. Don't go anywhere near an SA-3.1. Huge power supply regulator problems. I'm talking needs a complete redesign and an added PCB & heat sink. Nasty design has the pass transistor right on the SOA curve. The regulator was compromised from efforts to keep the pass transistor alive. The worst design I have ever seen before. A new transformer would solve those issues.
The redone SA-5000 is fantastic compared to a stock or other modified versions. It's rock stable now, has very, very little background noise and the audio is cleaner. I return the unit to stock, factory trim, then modify it from that point. It gets all new coupling capacitors and decoupling capacitors. Guess what? Mine fit properly too! As I was saying, I make fundamental changes to the basic design of the regulator and change some operating points. It comes out with a very clean, but still Counterpoint sound. I'm very happy with the unit after the work, but it is a ton of work. I also solved the eating of phono tubes and destruction of the 12AX7 error amp in the regulator. Fun and games. It's also a lot more forgiving of different AC mains voltages.
The SA-5000 is one of the better preamplifiers I have heard after the mod. Before they are okay, but can be temperamental. If you can find one that hasn't been messed with, it'll cost you about $1K to have me do it. It is a massive amount of work that takes me around three days to complete and install a bucket of new parts.
I did one that another tech had destroyed. When a friend heard it afterwards, he immediately came in with his for the same work. What I'm told is that I charge a lot less than Michael Elliot ever did, and it really sounds much better. I'll agree with the last bit since I have heard the before and after. The best tubes for these are the Electroharmonix 6922EH. Against my better judgement, I also do the mod so you can use a 6BW4 rectifier. The work I do negates the need for this change for the most part. My friend likes that rectifier along with the changes I make. I'll take a 6CA4, thank you very much.
Hi anatech. I didn't realized the 3.1 doesn't have buffered outputs. Is that correct?
Thank you anatech. Now I understand. Still I love this 3.1. Gonna keep an eye out for a counterpoint that will better suit my system.
Hi Chris,
I might leave well enough alone WRT the balance control.
The B+ is stable; this could be due to the 230v mains, and the amp is dead quiet. I had to trim the filament voltage reg. to bring it up to 6.3vdc.
I don't have have an issue with the 12AX7 at this stage, so all is good and the amp sounds sublime, the best I have heard.
BTW do you retain the cathode J-FETs and SS buffers with your mod?
I am running a Garrott - Decca in my Linn Sondek and don't require the MC input. I replaced the J-FETs with a LED.
Your comments are much appreciated.
Regards Paul
I might leave well enough alone WRT the balance control.
The B+ is stable; this could be due to the 230v mains, and the amp is dead quiet. I had to trim the filament voltage reg. to bring it up to 6.3vdc.
I don't have have an issue with the 12AX7 at this stage, so all is good and the amp sounds sublime, the best I have heard.
BTW do you retain the cathode J-FETs and SS buffers with your mod?
I am running a Garrott - Decca in my Linn Sondek and don't require the MC input. I replaced the J-FETs with a LED.
Your comments are much appreciated.
Regards Paul
Hi Paul,
Yes, I retain the buffers and J-Fets. Using an LED achieves tube bias, but the signal is much lower distortion through the J-Fet. Replacing J-Fets is part of what I do. You don't currently have need of the J-Fets though.
They actually did something pretty great with this preamp. They almost got it right. So the changes to the circuit are all in the power supply. Then there are the better parts I use that are not part of the audio anointed favorites. They were picked first with my HP 4263A LCR meter, then by listening. Solid improvements that can be measured. That's right, better measured performance.
-Chris
Yes, I retain the buffers and J-Fets. Using an LED achieves tube bias, but the signal is much lower distortion through the J-Fet. Replacing J-Fets is part of what I do. You don't currently have need of the J-Fets though.
They actually did something pretty great with this preamp. They almost got it right. So the changes to the circuit are all in the power supply. Then there are the better parts I use that are not part of the audio anointed favorites. They were picked first with my HP 4263A LCR meter, then by listening. Solid improvements that can be measured. That's right, better measured performance.
-Chris
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