Yep... Diptrace! Seriously try it...
You may not find every single component in the library, but you can make your own components, patterns etc.
Others post their own component files on the very active yahoo group. But I find ususally that I can make my own component quicker than it takes me to look online for one.
The manual is very good
Its free and you can output to Gerber...
Dont like to be too evangilistic about it , but its a seriously usefull tool
You may not find every single component in the library, but you can make your own components, patterns etc.
Others post their own component files on the very active yahoo group. But I find ususally that I can make my own component quicker than it takes me to look online for one.
The manual is very good
Its free and you can output to Gerber...
Dont like to be too evangilistic about it , but its a seriously usefull tool
Thanks to both of you ...
The crippled ones i like very much ... as first ... then when they are intutive and practically usefull ... then there's no matter to buy them ... 'cause mostly soft doesn't show the probs which really su** in free modus ... whatever ... yes i'll start many times on square 1 ... as i started with the first crippled version of cubase on the atari and the future proggie of steinberg is still in use here but payed in full. Well i had once downed kicad and erased it again ... drawing schematics was simply painful and ... yes maybe it's time for more patience ... but that's the opposite of creativity ... a good software needs to hold you in flow with working otherwise it's not worth at all ... better getting a sheet of paper/pencil/gum and design the circuit and then use expresspcb ... for that i exactly only need to design the missing footprints of the components beacuse there's no need for simulation for that orcad's pspice has the best "free" student archive of components ... that's why freepcb has a good flow for me to work with ...
justblair ... i'll have a look at diptrace ... thanks for the hint ... looks like an army preamp supplied with "bio" fuel cell ...
regards
artQuake
koolatron said:
The crippled ones i like very much ... as first ... then when they are intutive and practically usefull ... then there's no matter to buy them ... 'cause mostly soft doesn't show the probs which really su** in free modus ... whatever ... yes i'll start many times on square 1 ... as i started with the first crippled version of cubase on the atari and the future proggie of steinberg is still in use here but payed in full. Well i had once downed kicad and erased it again ... drawing schematics was simply painful and ... yes maybe it's time for more patience ... but that's the opposite of creativity ... a good software needs to hold you in flow with working otherwise it's not worth at all ... better getting a sheet of paper/pencil/gum and design the circuit and then use expresspcb ... for that i exactly only need to design the missing footprints of the components beacuse there's no need for simulation for that orcad's pspice has the best "free" student archive of components ... that's why freepcb has a good flow for me to work with ...
justblair ... i'll have a look at diptrace ... thanks for the hint ... looks like an army preamp supplied with "bio" fuel cell ...
regards
artQuake
Remember, as with every one of the packages that I have tried. You need to start with the schematic editor, and then "convert to pcb" that way you get all the ratsnest lines.
If you do it that way, the DRC checker will keep you right in terms of checking you have made all the connections.
I generally use the following process.
1. Produce my schemtic.
2. Check that all the items in the scehmatic have the correct pcb pattern attached. Where not I replace the attached pattern.
3. Convert to pcb.
4. Place the components on the empty work area so that the ratsnest lines are as easy to follow as possible. ie. not crossed if at all possible.
5. narrow the spacing between components.
6. go to the "autorouter" settings and select wether I want single sided, and change the settings.
7. Run the autorouter. (this will also set the board outline)
8. Edit the autorouted traces to my liking. I thicken the traces now.
9. Set up any ground planes
9. Double... No Tripple check absolutely everything (the longest part of the process)
10. Print to transparency, or export the Gerber files.
Sounds a lot, but in actual fact the process is pretty easy.
If you do it that way, the DRC checker will keep you right in terms of checking you have made all the connections.
I generally use the following process.
1. Produce my schemtic.
2. Check that all the items in the scehmatic have the correct pcb pattern attached. Where not I replace the attached pattern.
3. Convert to pcb.
4. Place the components on the empty work area so that the ratsnest lines are as easy to follow as possible. ie. not crossed if at all possible.
5. narrow the spacing between components.
6. go to the "autorouter" settings and select wether I want single sided, and change the settings.
7. Run the autorouter. (this will also set the board outline)
8. Edit the autorouted traces to my liking. I thicken the traces now.
9. Set up any ground planes
9. Double... No Tripple check absolutely everything (the longest part of the process)
10. Print to transparency, or export the Gerber files.
Sounds a lot, but in actual fact the process is pretty easy.
Koolatron is right in one sense. None of these programs are very hard to get your head around, but the UI's can be very different.
On the other hand, learn one, learn 'em all. They all just automate some not-very-complicated parts of a complicated task.
It's the feature set that's critical, and support into the future. The UI is secondary. Your requirements in a feature set are probably quite basic though, you probably don't need e.g. pick-and-place points.
From the support of view gEDA looks slightly better than kicad, since it has a developer community, and has already changed hands, where kicad is the work of one person. The 3D rendering in kicad looks nice, but stuff like that adds to the complexity of the package definitions, although you may be able to skip some bits at the cost of no 3D.
gEDA is only available under unix, whereas kicad will run under Windows.
Both are under the GPL, so if the worst comes to the worst you have access to the source code. If you can't fix it yourself, you can probably get it fixed, if you can describe the problem.
I think charging for non-commercial use of any SC/PCB program is mean and possibly short-sighted.
w
The last time I tried auto-place and auto-route, admittedly some years ago, they were a complete waste of time. They may have got better, but I'm pretty sure a skilled person can still do a better job.
On the other hand, learn one, learn 'em all. They all just automate some not-very-complicated parts of a complicated task.
It's the feature set that's critical, and support into the future. The UI is secondary. Your requirements in a feature set are probably quite basic though, you probably don't need e.g. pick-and-place points.
From the support of view gEDA looks slightly better than kicad, since it has a developer community, and has already changed hands, where kicad is the work of one person. The 3D rendering in kicad looks nice, but stuff like that adds to the complexity of the package definitions, although you may be able to skip some bits at the cost of no 3D.
gEDA is only available under unix, whereas kicad will run under Windows.
Both are under the GPL, so if the worst comes to the worst you have access to the source code. If you can't fix it yourself, you can probably get it fixed, if you can describe the problem.
I think charging for non-commercial use of any SC/PCB program is mean and possibly short-sighted.
w
The last time I tried auto-place and auto-route, admittedly some years ago, they were a complete waste of time. They may have got better, but I'm pretty sure a skilled person can still do a better job.
In diptrace the autoplace, I have never quite got to grips with, doesn't seem to do a good job, but then I have seen tutorials on using autoplace kicking about.
The autoroute though is a really good tool. It seems to do a pretty good job, though I would consider it a time saving way of getting a starting point. i always end up moving the traces a bit to my liking.
The autoroute though is a really good tool. It seems to do a pretty good job, though I would consider it a time saving way of getting a starting point. i always end up moving the traces a bit to my liking.
I have not tried TinyCAD, but I've used FreePCB quite a bit. I highly recommend it. The tutorial and documentation are very well written, and they will guide you through not only coming up to speed on the software itself, but also on the whole process of getting PC boards from a vendor if you haven't done that before. There is also a very good forum at FreePCB.com, and Allan is very responsive to fixing bugs.
You'll need to download the freeware ViewMate Gerber viewer to inspect the Gerber output before sending it to the PCB fab house.
You'll need to download the freeware ViewMate Gerber viewer to inspect the Gerber output before sending it to the PCB fab house.
Cause what one finds easy, others seem to struggle with. I tried TinyCad. i hated it. I hated eagle as well. Diptrace is defo the easiest for me to pick up and use.
I love that software in a way that is slightly unnatural!
Only time it has let me down was that Gerbers I sent to futurlec, apparently did not have the apertures included. I have to admit I am pretty ignorant whe it comes to gerber files, I thought that they were included in the format.
However I sent them N/C drill files and they are happy with that. prooof of the pudding will be when i get the boards. 8 working days they say and I can tell you more.
I love that software in a way that is slightly unnatural!
Only time it has let me down was that Gerbers I sent to futurlec, apparently did not have the apertures included. I have to admit I am pretty ignorant whe it comes to gerber files, I thought that they were included in the format.
However I sent them N/C drill files and they are happy with that. prooof of the pudding will be when i get the boards. 8 working days they say and I can tell you more.
We're all a bit different in what we like and dislike, and that's just fine. What I find amazing is that some very expensive packages seem as convoluted as if they were garageware. With PCB packages, you do not get what you pay for, so just find something you can live with and have at it.
If you do digital, the libraries may be pretty good, but every significant mistake I've ever had on an analog board has been due to using pre-made libraries. My first action now is to delete all library components and make my own. That way I have what I need, I know it's right, and it agrees with the requirements of the PCB house I'm going to send it to. You can eliminate about 90% of mistakes by checking semiconductor pinouts (regulators are just as often wrong as right), and hole sizes. If you think you might need a higher wattage resistor, put the right size pads and holes in from the start. Keep a folder of design notes- standard part sizes and holes, device pinouts, and PCB house requirements for the lowest cost boards. Put in the sizes for various mounting screws as well.
If you do digital, the libraries may be pretty good, but every significant mistake I've ever had on an analog board has been due to using pre-made libraries. My first action now is to delete all library components and make my own. That way I have what I need, I know it's right, and it agrees with the requirements of the PCB house I'm going to send it to. You can eliminate about 90% of mistakes by checking semiconductor pinouts (regulators are just as often wrong as right), and hole sizes. If you think you might need a higher wattage resistor, put the right size pads and holes in from the start. Keep a folder of design notes- standard part sizes and holes, device pinouts, and PCB house requirements for the lowest cost boards. Put in the sizes for various mounting screws as well.
justblair,
I tryed it out yesterday night, and yes it fit's to my desires too i did not get so far in the same time as with expresspcb. But due to the fact that it was allready midnight, drawing went well and lissome ... The library is bigger and then expresspcb and the 30-days free trial makes it possible too design something small and even 300-days are possible when you have a stored image of your system and that is definetly legal ... whatever the price in comparison to other soft is cheap though, so buying it is an true alternative, when you're content with it.
Do you know how to add the components menu from the left to the right side of the screen ? And how to scroll the components with the mouse from up to down ? Every time when turning the mouse wheel the schematic or pcb layout zoom's in and out ...
Are you happy with the autotrace function ? I tryed a few proggies with that utility, but when i tryed to get as much as possible to a symmetric tracing on the board i never had luck with that function ... somethimes it's really luck when you get it autotraced as you wish ... You only have to relocate a component on the pcb layout and the resulting tracing will just be another ... I understand the use of that function when making a big pcb with a few hundred traces then it really makes sense, but for some small preamp or amp or PIC projects i find it's better to sit down and design the traceroute by hand ... maybe there where algorithms in that proggies which could allow the user tracing with boundary conditions, and i did not see that function ... who knows ...
regards
artQuake
I tryed it out yesterday night, and yes it fit's to my desires too i did not get so far in the same time as with expresspcb. But due to the fact that it was allready midnight, drawing went well and lissome ... The library is bigger and then expresspcb and the 30-days free trial makes it possible too design something small and even 300-days are possible when you have a stored image of your system
and that is definetly legal ... whatever the price in comparison to other soft is cheap though, so buying it is an true alternative, when you're content with it.Do you know how to add the components menu from the left to the right side of the screen ? And how to scroll the components with the mouse from up to down ? Every time when turning the mouse wheel the schematic or pcb layout zoom's in and out ...
Are you happy with the autotrace function ? I tryed a few proggies with that utility, but when i tryed to get as much as possible to a symmetric tracing on the board i never had luck with that function ... somethimes it's really luck when you get it autotraced as you wish ... You only have to relocate a component on the pcb layout and the resulting tracing will just be another ... I understand the use of that function when making a big pcb with a few hundred traces then it really makes sense, but for some small preamp or amp or PIC projects i find it's better to sit down and design the traceroute by hand ... maybe there where algorithms in that proggies which could allow the user tracing with boundary conditions, and i did not see that function ... who knows ...
regards
artQuake
Cadence seems to be the de-facto commercial standard PCB routing software. I know of several large-budget operations that use it, and I had a student version available to me while I was in school.
However, for the hobbyist, it's just not an option. Unless you want to pirate it, which I do not advocate.
--k
However, for the hobbyist, it's just not an option. Unless you want to pirate it, which I do not advocate.
--k
artquake said:The library is bigger and then expresspcb and the 30-days free trial makes it possible too design something small and even 300-days are possible when you have a stored image of your system
Even in the free version, a 250 hole board is ususally more than enough. 1000 holes for a hundres odd dollars is good value though. I have no idea what you mean bout a stored image,
I do admit I run it on Virtual PC. Though that is more to do with the fact I use a company supplied laptop, and ordinarily I am not allowed to install software on it. However I am an IT trainer, so I have various virtual PC images on my drive so that I can teach different software bundles.artquake said:
Yes. You have to use a the component editor. You can load up a component file and add to it, or alternatively make your own library. If you do, you will get an extra top tab and from there your own components will display down the side. Most components can be created using one of the standard patterns, and just editing the pad properties to match the manufactures assembly.
artquake said:
Mine scrolls up and down, if I have a compnent selected on the left hand side, but no component selected on the right. Sometimes you have to click on an empty bit in the board pane to deselect a board object.
artquake said:
The autotrace rarely does what I expect it to. Diptrace can be used with more "advanced" autotrace software that can be purchased off another company. There is a link on their website.
Personally I let it do its thing, then manually edit the traces afterwards to my liking. You dont need to run it on a every trace in the board. If you manually route the important parts and then run the autorouter, the software will work around your manually placed traces. I find myself doing a bit of both. Its easy though to move a trace, there is a button on the toolbar for doing this.
There is a setting in the same menu as autoroute that allows you to change its settings. I tend not to do much with it except set the number of planes depending on wether the board is single or double sided....
I would encourage more people to try this package, as much as anything else so that we can share schematics and files without me having to go back to one of the packages I didn't get on with... Selfish? Yeh and so what!?
Blair
And i only install/run different appz ... when the time has come again ... and regedit won't work ...justblair said:
HD-Space isn't that expensive anymore ... and when ssd get's into low price ... then wowWhen i edit a component as i understand you so far, then only the footprint from the edited component get's a menu on the right side of the screen, but the library - respectively the shown components of it - still rest on the left side ... Isn't it possible to to take the menu over from left to right ? Hmm maybe with shortcut's ... donno ... but what i know is that i can not think when menu is on the left side ... anyway i got the schematic done quite fast now ... first draw your schematic with pencil then choose all components out of the library and place it on the screen ant then draw the wires ... that's a good way ... but i remeber that you allready mentioned that yesterday ...justblair said:
Interesting ... so i have to check out the settings of my mouse ...justblair said:
I'll look out that ... found out that it's possible to auto trace grouped connections ... and as you said when i lock components it traces around them ... good but in a sort of way i am to aestetically in design so i'll stay on that opinion about tracing by hand ...justblair said:
BTW: Is it possible to autoselect width of traces ? There's a spice inside ... but i'd not try it yet ... so if yes, then it would be somehow possible i guess ...
When editing in pcb mode ? Inserting edges into a drawn trace manually possible ? Tell me more ... anyhow i have to check that out, as changing the place of a component and autotrace isn't really confortable ...
in no way
best regards and thanks for your hints
artQuake
My choice seems to be mostly unknown, but offers schematic & layout & synchronization in one tool and is intended for free use without restrictions.
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.