I plan on building myself a tube amp. I was going to copy a Jolida design but it was suggested I try to find something better.
I have plenty of experience wiring, but not so much in tube design.
What I am looking for:
Preferably an integrated amp with a preamp section.
A decent amount of power to drive my Paradigms (est 89~90) until I build a more efficient set of speakers.
Alot of the music I listen to has low bass so I am looking for a design with clear, tight bass.
No exotic parts. I want to be able to find easily find any tubes or transformers, etc for the initial build of if I need replacements.
Modern circuits like CCS.
The reason I dont want a kit is because eventually I would probably want to upgrade parts like capacitors and would rather just build it with the right parts the first time around.
I would also like an amp that sounds great both at low and high volumes. From what I read it sounds like toroidal opt's are good for that, but they seem to be very expensive. Would it be worth it to go that route?
Budget: I would like to keep it $700 or less, but will pay a little more if it will undoubtebly give much better sound quality.
Thanks for all the help.
I have plenty of experience wiring, but not so much in tube design.
What I am looking for:
Preferably an integrated amp with a preamp section.
A decent amount of power to drive my Paradigms (est 89~90) until I build a more efficient set of speakers.
Alot of the music I listen to has low bass so I am looking for a design with clear, tight bass.
No exotic parts. I want to be able to find easily find any tubes or transformers, etc for the initial build of if I need replacements.
Modern circuits like CCS.
The reason I dont want a kit is because eventually I would probably want to upgrade parts like capacitors and would rather just build it with the right parts the first time around.
I would also like an amp that sounds great both at low and high volumes. From what I read it sounds like toroidal opt's are good for that, but they seem to be very expensive. Would it be worth it to go that route?
Budget: I would like to keep it $700 or less, but will pay a little more if it will undoubtebly give much better sound quality.
Thanks for all the help.
Sorry, but I'm not sure you realize what you're asking for. A tube amplifier capable of delivering 80-90 watts output is not going to be cheap to build. A single pair of 6550 outputs do have a operational spec that approaches 100 watts, but don't expect them to last long... and I'm referring to "real" 6550 tubes from the 50's and 60's, not the copies currently available. That means a quad per channel for reliable operation.... and two quad sets will set you back around $275, plus input and driver tubes.
Also realize that your power supply will need to deliver a minimum of 300ma current for a single amplfier channel at a solid 500+volts to even come close and the output iron itself will need to be quite large to handle low frequencies at that power level. You may be able to buy Hammond iron cheaply, but their largest power tranny only delivers 465ma, and I would not recommend their larger power units due to massive magnetic fields and the problems associated with layout.
Regards, KM
Also realize that your power supply will need to deliver a minimum of 300ma current for a single amplfier channel at a solid 500+volts to even come close and the output iron itself will need to be quite large to handle low frequencies at that power level. You may be able to buy Hammond iron cheaply, but their largest power tranny only delivers 465ma, and I would not recommend their larger power units due to massive magnetic fields and the problems associated with layout.
Regards, KM
I agree with the wattage part. If you can't acheive what you want with 20-30 watts of tube output, you are in love with overkill. My P-P receivers are between 25 and 30 watts, and they are more than capable of driving most anyone out of the house. Coupled to my Wharfedale Airedales, they would drive the neighbors crazy.
I'm not sure which Push-Pull amp you would be looking for, but I would suggest you start simple, like I am about to do. Go to Uncle George's Tube Lab.com , and check out his wonderful Single-Ended amps. I am going to build his Simple S-E Amplifier.
What is so great about his project is that he is the only one I know of, who has fully explained his theory and completely documented the step by step process with wonderful pictures. Reading his work is a joy to behold. He is far from pretty, but his projects are stunning.
As for the preamp part, that is also part of the project. But keep in mind that Single-ended amps are very inefficient, and his will put out about 7 watts each channel. But for the money you save, you can always pick up a nice Fostex, or go all the way with a Silver Iris and make it sing to high heavens.
Anyway, go visit his marvelous site and just let yourself get lost in it. YOu will be amazed at his knowledge and care.
I'm not sure which Push-Pull amp you would be looking for, but I would suggest you start simple, like I am about to do. Go to Uncle George's Tube Lab.com , and check out his wonderful Single-Ended amps. I am going to build his Simple S-E Amplifier.
What is so great about his project is that he is the only one I know of, who has fully explained his theory and completely documented the step by step process with wonderful pictures. Reading his work is a joy to behold. He is far from pretty, but his projects are stunning.
As for the preamp part, that is also part of the project. But keep in mind that Single-ended amps are very inefficient, and his will put out about 7 watts each channel. But for the money you save, you can always pick up a nice Fostex, or go all the way with a Silver Iris and make it sing to high heavens.
Anyway, go visit his marvelous site and just let yourself get lost in it. YOu will be amazed at his knowledge and care.
John L said:
Thanks for the reply. Ill check out the website you suggested.
The reason I am looking for about 40wpc is my Paradigms, which I will probably be using for a while until I move, only have an efficiency of 89db. So with better speakers I am sure 40wpc would be overkill. I realize 40wpc should only be 3db louder per channel than a 20 wpc amp.
With a 20 wpc amp and inefficient speakers will I still be able to crank it to a nearly uncomfortable level with a little headroom?
I have a set of Paradigm 7seMkIII. They are in a basement about 15' wide by 35' long.
I've built a clone of the Dynaco ST35 (push-pull EL84, about 15 watts per side).
I feel it can drive my Paradigm's plenty loud. Maybe if I played lots of orchestral music or bass heavy pipe organ stuff, I might need more - but I don't think the Paradigm's would tolerate it very well. Of course, you didn't specify which model of Paradigm you own - they make a fairly wide range. Maybe yours can handle more power.
The ST35 clone can cost you as little as $300 or so if you are really good at scrounging for parts. You might spend upwards of twice that if you take the easy route and just buy everything new. I'm sure there are plenty of good choices for amplifier design out there. I'm sure you'll probably get a couple recommendations to look around here for the El Cheapo and Baby Huey designs, too.
I've built a clone of the Dynaco ST35 (push-pull EL84, about 15 watts per side).
I feel it can drive my Paradigm's plenty loud. Maybe if I played lots of orchestral music or bass heavy pipe organ stuff, I might need more - but I don't think the Paradigm's would tolerate it very well. Of course, you didn't specify which model of Paradigm you own - they make a fairly wide range. Maybe yours can handle more power.
The ST35 clone can cost you as little as $300 or so if you are really good at scrounging for parts. You might spend upwards of twice that if you take the easy route and just buy everything new. I'm sure there are plenty of good choices for amplifier design out there. I'm sure you'll probably get a couple recommendations to look around here for the El Cheapo and Baby Huey designs, too.
Ty_Bower said:
I was thinking about a Dynaco design, but in my thread when I was thinking of copying a Jolida design someone said it was a 1957 design and I would be better off finding something more modern so I figured the Dynaco would be the same way.
Do you feel that your Dynaco clone can compete with more modern designs?
My Paradigms are Phantoms which are not as nice as yours but they will serve me for a little while longer. I beleive they can handle 100 watts each.
If P-P is what you want, and you are looking at the Dynaco ST-70, then the one to look at is Roy Mottram's Tubes 4 HiFi .com . He has the best reputation, that I know of, for taking care of his customers, and he has revamped the old design to make it better and last longer.
If I was going to build a P-P amp, this would be it. Also, if you look around the site, you can also find a PAT4 reconfiguration kit, where you can remove the solid state innards and replace them with tubes. Neat!
but I already have quite a few vintage tube receivers and a couple of integrated amps, so I am more interested in George's SET projects, since I am totally without any of those, and want to see for myself.
If I was going to build a P-P amp, this would be it. Also, if you look around the site, you can also find a PAT4 reconfiguration kit, where you can remove the solid state innards and replace them with tubes. Neat!
but I already have quite a few vintage tube receivers and a couple of integrated amps, so I am more interested in George's SET projects, since I am totally without any of those, and want to see for myself.
JayH3,
Paul Joppa provides us with a useful rule of thumb. Joppa's Rule says that for a "typical" listening space, an amp speaker combo should be capable of producing 102 dB. SPL peaks, at a 1 M. distance. For 89 dB. efficient speakers, Joppa's Rule requires a bit more than 15 WPC. After factoring in speaker manufacturer misinformation in claimed performace, 30 or so WPC seem about right.
Speaker manufacturers will specify efficiency for 2.83 V. of drive. They also will specify a nominal impedance. When using a tube amp, the impedance curve of speakers matters a LOT. Allowance must be made for dips in impedance curve and the fact that 2.83 V. of drive is 1 W. into 8 Ohms, but it's 2 W. into 4 Ohms.
Ty Bower mentioned "El Cheapo". If you use 7591 O/P tubes, you can get the necessary 30 WPC from that style of circuitry. Since "El Cheapo" has a volume control, your desire for an "integrated" amp will be fulfilled. What sort of signal source(s) do you use?
Even using some "fancy" parts, like PEC hot molded Carbon controls, will not consume the budgeted $700.
Paul Joppa provides us with a useful rule of thumb. Joppa's Rule says that for a "typical" listening space, an amp speaker combo should be capable of producing 102 dB. SPL peaks, at a 1 M. distance. For 89 dB. efficient speakers, Joppa's Rule requires a bit more than 15 WPC. After factoring in speaker manufacturer misinformation in claimed performace, 30 or so WPC seem about right.
Speaker manufacturers will specify efficiency for 2.83 V. of drive. They also will specify a nominal impedance. When using a tube amp, the impedance curve of speakers matters a LOT. Allowance must be made for dips in impedance curve and the fact that 2.83 V. of drive is 1 W. into 8 Ohms, but it's 2 W. into 4 Ohms.
Ty Bower mentioned "El Cheapo". If you use 7591 O/P tubes, you can get the necessary 30 WPC from that style of circuitry.
Since "El Cheapo" has a volume control, your desire for an "integrated" amp will be fulfilled. What sort of signal source(s) do you use?Even using some "fancy" parts, like PEC hot molded Carbon controls, will not consume the budgeted $700.
90w per channel is unnecessary with your speakers, unless you have a very large listening room. 40w seems a sensible target and you can get that much from a pair of 6550s or KT88s in ultralinear PP.
You could manage 40w also with EL34s, but only in pentode mode. 300Bs are also a possibility but the design would be more challenging and the cost would be too high for your budget. I think 6550s in UL PP seem your best choice.
Naturally, you will need an adequate power transformer but the key to the qualities you're asking for is to buy very good OP transformers. I don't believe Hammond falls into that category (others may dispute this) but there are suitable makes available without going to the expense and potential problems of toroids. Lundahl is one that springs to mind.
There are many amp designs that can be used, according to how adventurous you want to be. My own preference would be for an all-balanced design, using a 6SL7 LTP splitter for input, with a (pentode or PNP cascode) CCS in the tail. 6SU7, if you can get them, have the same characteristics as 6SL7 but are better matched.
The second stage would be a 6SN7 differential amplifier. Coupling between the first two stages would be via a step network, rather than using DC coupling. A step network would help to keep the voltages more workable, minimize the effect of any DC imbalance of the LTP and provide stability at low frequencies for the application of NFB.
Next would be a pair of MOSET source follower drivers, direct coupled to the OP tubes and using fixed bias on the gates. This arrangement would avoid altogether any danger of blocking distortion if the OP tubes are overdriven, such as can happen on transients. If you don't like the idea of SS devices, you could use a second 6SN7 as a cathode follower, but then you'd be using up more space and more heater power and it wouldn't sound any better.
For negative feedback, I would use cross-coupled balanced loops from the OP tube plates to the LTP plates, together with a global loop from the OPT secondary to the earthed grid of the LTP input stage. The thing is to use no more NFB that your speakers require for tight bass.
If you fancy the 'authority' of a pentode-mode OP stage, then you might be better off using 6SL7 (or 6SU7) for both the first and second stages, to give more gain so you can apply more NFB to give adequate damping.
You could manage 40w also with EL34s, but only in pentode mode. 300Bs are also a possibility but the design would be more challenging and the cost would be too high for your budget. I think 6550s in UL PP seem your best choice.
Naturally, you will need an adequate power transformer but the key to the qualities you're asking for is to buy very good OP transformers. I don't believe Hammond falls into that category (others may dispute this) but there are suitable makes available without going to the expense and potential problems of toroids. Lundahl is one that springs to mind.
There are many amp designs that can be used, according to how adventurous you want to be. My own preference would be for an all-balanced design, using a 6SL7 LTP splitter for input, with a (pentode or PNP cascode) CCS in the tail. 6SU7, if you can get them, have the same characteristics as 6SL7 but are better matched.
The second stage would be a 6SN7 differential amplifier. Coupling between the first two stages would be via a step network, rather than using DC coupling. A step network would help to keep the voltages more workable, minimize the effect of any DC imbalance of the LTP and provide stability at low frequencies for the application of NFB.
Next would be a pair of MOSET source follower drivers, direct coupled to the OP tubes and using fixed bias on the gates. This arrangement would avoid altogether any danger of blocking distortion if the OP tubes are overdriven, such as can happen on transients. If you don't like the idea of SS devices, you could use a second 6SN7 as a cathode follower, but then you'd be using up more space and more heater power and it wouldn't sound any better.
For negative feedback, I would use cross-coupled balanced loops from the OP tube plates to the LTP plates, together with a global loop from the OPT secondary to the earthed grid of the LTP input stage. The thing is to use no more NFB that your speakers require for tight bass.
If you fancy the 'authority' of a pentode-mode OP stage, then you might be better off using 6SL7 (or 6SU7) for both the first and second stages, to give more gain so you can apply more NFB to give adequate damping.
I just checked out tubes4hifi.com. I am liking what he has to offer for the ST70. It looks like he made some modifications to the circuit...does anybody have a schematic of his design?
If I used that design would it be worth it to get a pair of Plitron toroidal OPT's or would the difference be almost indistinguishable from the included opt's in the kit.
I want to make sure I get the better parts the first time around so I am not diving in again, spending more money, to improve it later.
I am going to try to find that "el cheapo" design now.
If I used that design would it be worth it to get a pair of Plitron toroidal OPT's or would the difference be almost indistinguishable from the included opt's in the kit.
I want to make sure I get the better parts the first time around so I am not diving in again, spending more money, to improve it later.
I am going to try to find that "el cheapo" design now.
JayH3 said:
I don't know. I have no modern designs for comparison. I do know I like the way it sounds, it was easy to build, and all parts are readily available.
It sounds like you are researching ST70 designs as well. There are many options out there for ST70 amps, especially concerning modifications to the front end. Shannon Park's has such a driver here. It features a LTP phase splitter with a CCS. You might consider that more "modern" than the original Dynaco schematic.
http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=813
The push-pull EL34 output tubes in the ST70 should put you into the 35 watt per channel territory. You can buy new manufacture clone iron for about $315. Probably another $70 or so for power supply parts and $150 for the driver board and components. Spend the rest of the budget on glass, and get creative with the chassis.
Ty_Bower said:
After looking at this I think it may be the top pick. I am hoping to decide on something this weekend so I can start ordering parts.
One thing I noticed in the schematic for that amp is in the power section it used 20-20-20-30 uf for the capacitors. It seems to be popular to upgrade those like in the SDS replacement board that is 50-160-50-50uf. If I wanted to change that part of the circuit am I just changing the capacitors or does any other component need to be changed as well?
Any recommendations for output iron or are the Dynaco repros good enough?
Ah, okay... 40 watts a side, very different story. As most have suggested, the Dyna clone iron is decent stuff and there are tons of circuits you can use with them.... circuit boards too.
I did numerous designs using Dyna iron back in the 80's. I don't really like the old Dyna circuit (aka, 7199 or 6AN8 input/driver) so I always used a dual triode (12AU7 or 6FQ7) for the phase inverter and you can use a 12AY7. 5751 or 12AX7 for the input amp.
Options which are good to implement in the design are both AC balance on the phase inverter output and DC balance on the output pair... it does make a big difference. If you PM me I'll be happy to dig out and send the schematics to you.
As for current sourcing, I have mixed views on these.... I think a well-done current reference on the phase inverter can be a real plus but prefer standard loading on the input driver. I have a nice design on these but they were not cheap to implement back in the 80's.
Regards, KM
I did numerous designs using Dyna iron back in the 80's. I don't really like the old Dyna circuit (aka, 7199 or 6AN8 input/driver) so I always used a dual triode (12AU7 or 6FQ7) for the phase inverter and you can use a 12AY7. 5751 or 12AX7 for the input amp.
Options which are good to implement in the design are both AC balance on the phase inverter output and DC balance on the output pair... it does make a big difference. If you PM me I'll be happy to dig out and send the schematics to you.
As for current sourcing, I have mixed views on these.... I think a well-done current reference on the phase inverter can be a real plus but prefer standard loading on the input driver. I have a nice design on these but they were not cheap to implement back in the 80's.
Regards, KM
I think I have made a decision.
I will use this circuit:
http://www.diytube.com/st70/diytube_st70_B.pdf
With these transformers:
http://store.triodestore.com/sttrbu.html
And this power supply board:
http://store.triodestore.com/st70capupgrade.html
Does anybody have any final suggestions before I start ordering parts? Thanks to everyone for the help.
I will use this circuit:
http://www.diytube.com/st70/diytube_st70_B.pdf
With these transformers:
http://store.triodestore.com/sttrbu.html
And this power supply board:
http://store.triodestore.com/st70capupgrade.html
Does anybody have any final suggestions before I start ordering parts? Thanks to everyone for the help.
About desighn
You can use rack box.
rack us in profeccional or studio wark.
Audio eqipment too.
it's would be 100 Usd and 50 USD for delivery.
Inside there You can all experiments and change the oplate (metal plate)
You can use PP with 4 per chanal 509 tube ( Russian 6S45P)
20W with high curent out for demping factor, hard impedanse acoustic systems and according with all types systems...
it's 40 USD
(150+40=190).
Russian 6e6p with golden pins and anod near 10 USD.
2000W power transfoprmer near 200USD
2500 Henry amorpf steel core (toroidal) near 350 USD for 0,1 Hz in Low for low phase distortions.
Simple Irin core transformers near 200 USD for 4Hz in low.
Big Sheet, bronse regulator near 20USD*2=40USD.
Black color box.
190+10+200+200+40 = 640 USD
You can use rack box.
rack us in profeccional or studio wark.
Audio eqipment too.
it's would be 100 Usd and 50 USD for delivery.
Inside there You can all experiments and change the oplate (metal plate)
You can use PP with 4 per chanal 509 tube ( Russian 6S45P)
20W with high curent out for demping factor, hard impedanse acoustic systems and according with all types systems...
it's 40 USD
(150+40=190).
Russian 6e6p with golden pins and anod near 10 USD.
2000W power transfoprmer near 200USD
2500 Henry amorpf steel core (toroidal) near 350 USD for 0,1 Hz in Low for low phase distortions.
Simple Irin core transformers near 200 USD for 4Hz in low.
Big Sheet, bronse regulator near 20USD*2=40USD.
Black color box.
190+10+200+200+40 = 640 USD
JayH3 said:
I don't think you can go wrong building a ST70 clone, especially with an updated driver board. Even the bone stock ST70 amps with their 7199 pentode/cathodyne front end can sound quite nice. Given the sheer numbers of them out there, there is lots of support should you need help. You shouldn't want for power, either.
I'm a big fan of the power supply capacitor boards, such as the SDS board you noted. They don't cost any more than a quad can cap, and I believe they are much more reliable. I'm not impressed with some of the quad cans I've seen.
Keep in mind the ST70 is a power amp, not an integrated amp. It's plenty sensitive enough that you can almost certainly drive it to full output with nothing more than the line out of a CD player, but you still might want some kind of input source switching. At the very least, you'll need a volume control. You can go as simple as a 100k audio taper pot from Radio Shack, or maybe you can find a nice stepped attenuator. Will you need a phono preamp, or do you like to use tone controls (bass/treble)?
Regarding the parts list in the PDF file.... RN55 are tiny little nothings. I would be very inclined to use all RN65 rated resistors... they don't cost much more and you can buy Dale/Vishay RN series from Mouser at reasonable prices. Also, the 2Watt resistors... Dale makes some nice RS series which are wirewound non-inductive and 1%.
On the pf value caps... use silver mica caps... and for the coupling, pick a brand you like, these are almost a religious discussion. Have fun building it....
Regards, KM
On the pf value caps... use silver mica caps... and for the coupling, pick a brand you like, these are almost a religious discussion. Have fun building it....
Regards, KM
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