
Home  Forums  Rules  Articles  The diyAudio Store  Gallery  Blogs  Register  Donations  FAQ  Calendar  Search  Today's Posts  Mark Forums Read  Search 
Tubes / Valves All about our sweet vacuum tubes :) Threads about Musical Instrument Amps of all kinds should be in the Instruments & Amps forum 

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.
Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving 

Thread Tools  Search this Thread 
10th March 2008, 06:01 PM  #11 
diyAudio Member

Fourier found that any periodic function may be represented by multiple sine functions. However, is the signal is modulated by noise (that happens always because all electronics is nonlinear and generate a noise) there are nonharmonic distortions generated, but their level is the less the better is linearity and the lower is the noise.
__________________
"Our youth [...] have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders, contradict their parents, [...] and tyrannize their teachers.”  Plato, 447367 BCE 
10th March 2008, 06:16 PM  #12  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southwest Chicago Suburbs

Quote:
I'm not sure if you were responding to my post above, but it seems like it. To say that all electronics are nonlinear and generate noise is two different statements and conditions. The nonlinearity does not necessarily occur as a result of the noise, nor does the noise necessarily occur as a result of the nonlinearity. I am not a math major, by any means! But as I understand the math if I take a perfect sine wave at a single frequency (say 1KHz) and pass it through a nonlinear but noiseless device (if there was such a thing), I will still get harmonic distortion due to nonlinearity. The perfect sine wave will no longer be perfect due to the device's nonlinearity, harmonics will be generated, and those harmonics by definition will be multiples of the 1KHz fundamental. So I'm trying to figure out what Tubelab meant with his statement that all the bad stuff happens at 1K  the math says that can't be. I was seeking clarification about what he meant. 

10th March 2008, 06:38 PM  #13  
diyAudio Member

Re: Why is distortion harmonic?
Quote:
Other processes, such as aliasing during analogtodigital conversion, intermodulation, and frequency division aren't harmonically related either. As for why most distortion is harmonic, consider this: for musical instruments, the taught wires, or vibrating air columns, have one fundamental, and a series of stable arrangements of nodes and antinodes. These are all harmonically related. (The only exception here would be a drum head, which has a much more complex set of nodes and antinodes that can produce nonharmonic vibrations.) Electronic circuits, whether lumped or distributed, share the same property as physical resonant elements. Even if resonance doesn't play a part, every sort of nonlinear transfer function will generate harmonics, barring some other more complex phenomenon. Fourier analysis will demonstrate this. 

10th March 2008, 06:47 PM  #14 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Worcestershire

The key question in thinking about this is whether the behaviour of the circuit is time dependent.
If it is independent of time, any distortion effects must be the same for each cycle. The output waveform will be the same for every cycle, and if we fourier analyse this we find that all the distortion will be harmonic. Time dependent effects can easily result in the output varying from cycle to cycle, giving rise to nonharmonic components. A simple example is intermodulation with 100Hz (or 120Hz in the US) components from the power supply. This is often seen in power amps on the verge of clipping. The spectrum will show the usual high order (probably mostly odd) harmonics, and sidebands either side of the fundamental. More complex cases involve circuits which have some sort of nonlinear memory effect, which can give subharmonics. There are even circuits known that show a progression into chaotic behaviour as an appropriate variable like input amplitude is varied; an example of this is a resonator containing a nonlinear element, driven by an external sine wave. So the answer to the OP question is that distortion is not always purely harmonic, if the circuit has time dependent behaviour. 
10th March 2008, 08:24 PM  #15  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Virginia panhandle

Quote:
Fourier states that any repettitive signal can be represented by a series of summed sine waves. In theory a 1KHz tone distorted through an amplifier can only create 1KHz and its integer multiples. This represents harmonic distortion. Here the "bad stuff" happens at a 1KHz (and its multiples) rate. There are distortions that do not happen at the fundamental (or its harmonics) rate. You will not get 1.3KHz out of a distorted 1KHz sine wave unless some other signal is present. It is possible for 300 Hz and 1KHz to be applied to the same amplifier simultaneously to create 1.3 KHz through intermodulation distortion. (the SSB analogy presented above). It is possible for 100 Hz and 1KHz to enter an amplifier and have 1.3 KHz come out if harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion are both present. It is possible under some conditions for the second signal to be created inside the amplifier. I have seen cases where 1KHz goes into an amplifier and some unrelated tones come out. The usual cause here is oscillation (and IMD). When an amplifier is oscillating at an ultrasonic rate the oscillation is rarely a prefect sine wave. It may have harmonics and noise associated with it that gets mixed in with the intended signal creating a broad spectrum of low level spurious signals. Quote:
__________________
Too much power is almost enough! Turn it up till it explodes  then back up just a little. 

10th March 2008, 09:21 PM  #16  
diyAudio Member

Quote:
I was responding to the original question. If common practice of measurement of distortions is to measure harmonic distortions it does not mean that only they exist. Harmonic distortions are easy to measure in order to compare amplifiers. But such measurements have to be weighted against human perceptions that has no standard defined yet.
__________________
"Our youth [...] have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders, contradict their parents, [...] and tyrannize their teachers.”  Plato, 447367 BCE 

10th March 2008, 09:49 PM  #17 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norway, north of the moral circle..

Hi, guys......Sorry, but some of you are making a terrible mess out of something that's relatively simple from a math POV, although the math may seem hairy for some. I'll also state clearly that I have no intentions of being condecending here I've been teaching radio theory at polytecnic level for several years, and seen quite alot of students struggling with this.....
Harmonic and intermodulation are the two sides of the same coin  harmonic distortion is a single frequency item  injecting F1 results if F1+n x F1, where n is an integer. Intermodulatioin is usually described with two frequencies  F1 and F2, resulting in intermodulation products ( n x F1 + m x F2). Ex. above with 100Hz and 1000Hz gives 900,1100,1900,2100,1200, 800, 1800, and so on, all depending on the nonlinearites in the transfer function. The optimum transfer function is Aout=k x sin(wt), where k is your amplification factor graphically displayed as a straight line where the rise angle coefficient is the Amp factor. The problems arise when the curve deviates from the straight line, introducing higher order factors  sin^2, sin^3 and so on. These are the factors responsible for the higher order distortion products. If only sin^2 were present, there would only be 1 order products 2 x F1 and F1 + 2 x F2. The reference to SSB modulation, in essence AM and all its derivates, ( SSB being one of them), is a situation where you strive to achieve a perfectly quadratic transfer function based on sin^2. In the frequency mixer circuits used for this purpose, one actually uses purposely developed diodes wiith a well controlled dforward current to optimize the 2nd order behaviour  nothing but well controlled IMD. Mingling these processes with clipping, noise, oscillation etc. is trying to describe the interaction of highly different processes  truly a daunting task from a theoreticacl POV. 
10th March 2008, 10:01 PM  #18  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Virginia panhandle

Quote:
__________________
Too much power is almost enough! Turn it up till it explodes  then back up just a little. 

10th March 2008, 10:06 PM  #19  
diyAudio Member

Quote:
It is absolutely a fact that no others exist. If they would exist, you would see them on the spectrum, simple as that. You are correct that we don't know exactly how we (our ear/brain system) reacts to distortion. But that's another unrelated kettle of fish, of course. Jan Didden
__________________
I won't make the tactical error to try to dislodge with rational arguments a conviction that is beyond reason  Daniel Dennett Check out Linear Audio Vol 7! 

10th March 2008, 10:23 PM  #20 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norway, north of the moral circle..

As to the above...
Noise is stocastic in nature  i.e non predictable vs. time. That's the reasons we use pink noise as a test signal, as pink noise has a constant energy content pr. octave ( or parts of an octave), but it's frequency is impossible to predict in absolute time. Thus room resonances and reflections are not excited ( mostly..). As such, mixing a fixed frq. AND noise is an interesting thought  giving the possible production of all sorts of IM products  i.e. .all frequencies, but this requires the noise to have a significant amplitude  which we don't want, do we? Somewhat like listening to music frrom a weak shortwave station  all hiss and whistles  and maybe some music.......... EDIT : An overdriven, worn down guitar amp may be an interesting case for its function  creating strange guitar sounds ( and I'm actally currently planning one for my son) , but this has little relevance in HiFi  and I wouldn't even dream of trying to describe one in math terms 
Thread Tools  Search this Thread 


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Harmonic Distortion In Maggies  JimOfOakCreek  Planars & Exotics  2  20th April 2008 04:04 AM 
Measuring harmonic distortion with the ECM8000  owdi  MultiWay  42  23rd February 2007 12:09 AM 
What effect does a TL have on harmonic distortion?  owdi  MultiWay  0  26th April 2006 03:55 PM 
second harmonic distortion  tenderland  Tubes / Valves  5  5th August 2004 11:29 AM 
Non Linear Distortion testing  Harmonic Distortion  JMB  MultiWay  0  20th July 2004 02:54 PM 
New To Site?  Need Help? 