Aril,
This maybe the wrong question but what speaker are you going to use with the 300B amp when you build it? You have been stressing over output transformers but if you do not have effiecent enough speakers than the system is going to sound like a car wreck no matter which output you choose.
All the transformers you have discussed are top of the line and will give you great performance. The differences between them are going to be small. This boils down to personal preferances and everybodies are different.
That is why I am asking about the speakers because the speakers can make or break a system. You need to have sufficent power. This can be a challange with single end amps since they tend to lower powered and you can only really use the half the power berfore distortion gets unreasonable. Maybe something to think about.
This maybe the wrong question but what speaker are you going to use with the 300B amp when you build it? You have been stressing over output transformers but if you do not have effiecent enough speakers than the system is going to sound like a car wreck no matter which output you choose.
All the transformers you have discussed are top of the line and will give you great performance. The differences between them are going to be small. This boils down to personal preferances and everybodies are different.
That is why I am asking about the speakers because the speakers can make or break a system. You need to have sufficent power. This can be a challange with single end amps since they tend to lower powered and you can only really use the half the power berfore distortion gets unreasonable. Maybe something to think about.
Hi Andy Bartha.
A very relevant question, of course. I am primarily a loudspeaker-designer, not a amp. builder. My loudspeakers are a fullrange, true d'Appolito design. It uses two 8" woofers for bass and two 8" ribbons with custom waveguides for MF. The highs are covered by a AMT tweeter. This design has a in room frequency-response of 30 to more than 25000Hz within +/- 2dB or less. The distortion is super-low and the waterfall-plots are excellent. The impulse-response is awsome. The cabinet design are optimized for good airflow in the vented bass design with low tuning frequency and it is very well braided and damped with several sand-filled "vibration-traps". The waveguides and baffel-design makes it very phase-coherent design for medium to nearfield monitoring and will have no/little diffraction and also little/no 1st. reflections in the MF to HF because of the way the waveguide and drivers works. The phase-response of the passive filter is optimized (but is not a 6dB oct. filter), and there's no huge "dampingfactor-eating" coils. The impedance of the speaker is very flat, with just little corrections needed. It's low (because of double paralleled bass-drivers), but no problem matched to the right OPT. The lowest impedance is 3,2 Ohms between 100 to 200Hz and the highest, at 10 to 15 Ohms near the fs. of the bass drivers and tuning frequency of the enclosure. In the midrange and treble it is very flat at 4 Ohms, due to the nature of the drivers. The FREEFIELD sensitivity is 90dB. Please notice that this translates into a remarkably higher sensitivity in commercial speaker designs, as they more often operate with halfspace sensitivity and in addition often "interprate" the sensitivity very liberal. In addition most commercial speakers have a "rising" sensitivity as frequency rise. These often have a brighter or midrange-focused sound and are often thought of as having a "fast in the bass" character. "My" speakers are linear in a typical room and the load on a amplifier is because of the impedance and phase characteristics a easy load that doesn't compromize the damping of the amp too much either.
The 12W Lux will not give rock-concert volumes with the speakers, but will sound their very best all the way up to the listening levels I am listening at.
Hope this gave you a good answer.
The OPT in a amp do make a big difference, though, - but I agree that the speakers are the most important part!
Regards Aril
A very relevant question, of course. I am primarily a loudspeaker-designer, not a amp. builder. My loudspeakers are a fullrange, true d'Appolito design. It uses two 8" woofers for bass and two 8" ribbons with custom waveguides for MF. The highs are covered by a AMT tweeter. This design has a in room frequency-response of 30 to more than 25000Hz within +/- 2dB or less. The distortion is super-low and the waterfall-plots are excellent. The impulse-response is awsome. The cabinet design are optimized for good airflow in the vented bass design with low tuning frequency and it is very well braided and damped with several sand-filled "vibration-traps". The waveguides and baffel-design makes it very phase-coherent design for medium to nearfield monitoring and will have no/little diffraction and also little/no 1st. reflections in the MF to HF because of the way the waveguide and drivers works. The phase-response of the passive filter is optimized (but is not a 6dB oct. filter), and there's no huge "dampingfactor-eating" coils. The impedance of the speaker is very flat, with just little corrections needed. It's low (because of double paralleled bass-drivers), but no problem matched to the right OPT. The lowest impedance is 3,2 Ohms between 100 to 200Hz and the highest, at 10 to 15 Ohms near the fs. of the bass drivers and tuning frequency of the enclosure. In the midrange and treble it is very flat at 4 Ohms, due to the nature of the drivers. The FREEFIELD sensitivity is 90dB. Please notice that this translates into a remarkably higher sensitivity in commercial speaker designs, as they more often operate with halfspace sensitivity and in addition often "interprate" the sensitivity very liberal. In addition most commercial speakers have a "rising" sensitivity as frequency rise. These often have a brighter or midrange-focused sound and are often thought of as having a "fast in the bass" character. "My" speakers are linear in a typical room and the load on a amplifier is because of the impedance and phase characteristics a easy load that doesn't compromize the damping of the amp too much either.
The 12W Lux will not give rock-concert volumes with the speakers, but will sound their very best all the way up to the listening levels I am listening at.
Hope this gave you a good answer.
The OPT in a amp do make a big difference, though, - but I agree that the speakers are the most important part!
Regards Aril
Hi Aril,
Very interesting speaker design. From your description they should sound outstanding. My only concern is the 3.2 ohms from 100 to 200hz. As you well know that is very near the male and female formants so you do not want the amp having issues in that frequency range. I think you will have to run the amp on the 4 ohm taps which will lower the power out to less than 10w, more typical 300B power output. Running two 8 inch woofers, couple of ribbon mids and a tweeter maybe more current than a 300B looking into a 4 ohm load can provide. I'm sure at lower listen levels the sound will be fabulous but you may run into problems when you turn the wick up on the system. I ran into this problem with a 45 single ended tube amp. It was spectacular sound until I turned it up a bit. I was driving a Lowther PM 2As in a rear loaded horn. I hated to move that amp but it just didn't cut it. I sold it to a guy who was running Klipsch corner horns. The corner horns efficency is something around 105 dBs which made all the difference. The little 45 sounded just amazing even turned well up. Klipsch was mostly right when he said what the world needs is a good 5w amp. The caveat is you have to have efficient enough speakers.
Very interesting speaker design. From your description they should sound outstanding. My only concern is the 3.2 ohms from 100 to 200hz. As you well know that is very near the male and female formants so you do not want the amp having issues in that frequency range. I think you will have to run the amp on the 4 ohm taps which will lower the power out to less than 10w, more typical 300B power output. Running two 8 inch woofers, couple of ribbon mids and a tweeter maybe more current than a 300B looking into a 4 ohm load can provide. I'm sure at lower listen levels the sound will be fabulous but you may run into problems when you turn the wick up on the system. I ran into this problem with a 45 single ended tube amp. It was spectacular sound until I turned it up a bit. I was driving a Lowther PM 2As in a rear loaded horn. I hated to move that amp but it just didn't cut it. I sold it to a guy who was running Klipsch corner horns. The corner horns efficency is something around 105 dBs which made all the difference. The little 45 sounded just amazing even turned well up. Klipsch was mostly right when he said what the world needs is a good 5w amp. The caveat is you have to have efficient enough speakers.
Thank you, Andrew Bartha!
I will certainly look into it conserning current needed to drive the drivers! The ribbons and AMT should be easy, but the dynamic bass drivers ... It is Seas excel drivers. Good design, but still dynamic. My friend has a set of JM-Lab Utopia (with one 12"). They have a sensitivity of 92dB and all dynamic drivers and a more difficult impedance characteristic than mine. The passive filter is a bit more complex than mine and there are bigger coils that kill dampingfactor. With a pair of LD91+ Sign from DIY Hi Fi Supply, they still play very well! I know about SE amps and "the 1st. watt" thing, but still. I know Brian and Thorstein L. designed the Lux for those with a bit less efficient speakers. I hoped they could manaage my speakers! With a 3.5KOhm primary Zp OPT, I was thinking the 300B would see some 2.8KOhm and have a "good" dampingfactor, giving a bit more power into this load. I was thinking on even using EML 300B XLS if this would help any (I have been mailing with Jac Van der Walle of Jac Music about the EML 300B Mesh in this place). Please continue to give me feedback, Andrew and others
I am a bit confused about your backloaded horn/Lowther and SE45 experience ... I shold have believed it to work well ...
I certainly hope the Lux will work with my loudspeakers
Regards Aril
I will certainly look into it conserning current needed to drive the drivers! The ribbons and AMT should be easy, but the dynamic bass drivers ... It is Seas excel drivers. Good design, but still dynamic. My friend has a set of JM-Lab Utopia (with one 12"). They have a sensitivity of 92dB and all dynamic drivers and a more difficult impedance characteristic than mine. The passive filter is a bit more complex than mine and there are bigger coils that kill dampingfactor. With a pair of LD91+ Sign from DIY Hi Fi Supply, they still play very well! I know about SE amps and "the 1st. watt" thing, but still. I know Brian and Thorstein L. designed the Lux for those with a bit less efficient speakers. I hoped they could manaage my speakers! With a 3.5KOhm primary Zp OPT, I was thinking the 300B would see some 2.8KOhm and have a "good" dampingfactor, giving a bit more power into this load. I was thinking on even using EML 300B XLS if this would help any (I have been mailing with Jac Van der Walle of Jac Music about the EML 300B Mesh in this place). Please continue to give me feedback, Andrew and others
I am a bit confused about your backloaded horn/Lowther and SE45 experience ... I shold have believed it to work well ...
I certainly hope the Lux will work with my loudspeakers
Regards Aril
The 45 amp with rear loaded Lowthers played very nicely until I started to play the speakers louder. Then one could here the sound stage start to shrink and the bass starting to loose definition. The problem was the amp only put out 1.5 w and when I played the speakers louder I was getting to the point where distortion was getting to be high enough to cause sonic problems. With 300B amp I didn't run into this type of problem but I just didn't like the sound of the 300B as much as the 45. So I lived with 45 amp until I started to play around with LM 3886 power op amps. A simple 3886 op amp amp sounded just wonderful on the Lowthers. But the Lowthers are efficent enough so the 3886 is loafing when playing at reasonable levels and the louder it played the better the Lowthers sounded, up to a point. I have come to the conclusion that the Lowther drivers like power. Which isn't surprising since the PM 2As have a huge magnet structure.
It is not all about specs, i agree, if it was, why bother with tubes? Transistor amps have better ones.
But, i find hard to believe that e.g Japaner, know "what matters in sound" and -again for example- Sowter doesn't.
Transformers were constructed in Britain and USA, (and Germany) long before the rest of the world learned that they existed.
To me it is something like feng-sui: It comes from the mystirious far orient, thus it has something.
The oposite hapens in Japan: Everything from the USA is magic. Look at the prices they pay for old american equipment. For them, is the west that is exotic.
By the way, if you want to find an original WE91, you have to fly to Tokyo.
The high Tamura and Tango prices are explained not with the amount of soul they give back to the music, but with great looks and the use of the expensive Hi-B core material, which allows a claimed max induction of 2T
(i have a paper about this somewhere around, can find it, if you are interested ). More power for the same weight.
I can live with a larger core and i don't bother if my OPT's don't look so nice.
But again, that is my opinion and not my money to be spend.
Just my 2c
Konstantinos
But, i find hard to believe that e.g Japaner, know "what matters in sound" and -again for example- Sowter doesn't.
Transformers were constructed in Britain and USA, (and Germany) long before the rest of the world learned that they existed.
To me it is something like feng-sui: It comes from the mystirious far orient, thus it has something.
The oposite hapens in Japan: Everything from the USA is magic. Look at the prices they pay for old american equipment. For them, is the west that is exotic.
By the way, if you want to find an original WE91, you have to fly to Tokyo.
The high Tamura and Tango prices are explained not with the amount of soul they give back to the music, but with great looks and the use of the expensive Hi-B core material, which allows a claimed max induction of 2T
(i have a paper about this somewhere around, can find it, if you are interested ). More power for the same weight.
I can live with a larger core and i don't bother if my OPT's don't look so nice.
But again, that is my opinion and not my money to be spend.
Just my 2c
Konstantinos
Thank you for your 2c, Konstantinos
A spirited answer that points out some facts I - and I believe many more need to hear. Good that this is said in this post. There has been a reason for me to include Sowter and Amplimo/Plitron to my list. It has to do with not wanting to believe blindly on hype, and seeing so good data as for these European iron, but not finding so many good "spirited" descriptions about them.
So good to get such spirited defense for Sowter! What do you believe of Sowter iron compared to Electra Print and Partridge, Konstantinos (schiller)? (the more reknown Euro and US)
Regards Aril
A spirited answer that points out some facts I - and I believe many more need to hear. Good that this is said in this post. There has been a reason for me to include Sowter and Amplimo/Plitron to my list. It has to do with not wanting to believe blindly on hype, and seeing so good data as for these European iron, but not finding so many good "spirited" descriptions about them.
So good to get such spirited defense for Sowter! What do you believe of Sowter iron compared to Electra Print and Partridge, Konstantinos (schiller)? (the more reknown Euro and US)
Regards Aril
All th iron you have mentioned is first rate and will provide excellent performance. The 300B driver circuits will make much more of a sonic differece than the sonic differences of output transformers. The output transformers on the Dynaco amps were never greatest but I've heard some outstanding amps built up on Dynaco iron. The angst that some people work themselves up to over output transformers really isn't warrented if they use the quality of iron you have been discussing. I very much agree with Mr. Schiller's comments.
Thank you, Andy Bartha.
The driver in the Lux looks like a penthode + cathode-follower, but B. Cherry points out that it doesn't function as such. As he says: "Actually calling the driver stage a cathode follower is missing the picture. The only thing it has in common with a cathode follower is the grid of the power tube is connected to the cathode of the previous tube. But, there is no cap, rather a choke. So best to conceptualize the whole function from past the EF86 coupling cap through to the grid of the 300b as a 'reactive interstage'." Based on reports and design goals and also knowing both the L'Audiophile WE91 and LD91+ sign. character, I believe the Lux to be more dynamic and "direct-sounding". It may lack some "refinement" and "atmosphere" from the original WE91 type design. What I believe is that a well balanced OPT design will be tweaking the performance in a dirrection more resembling the LD/WE91 again, but with the Lux's better transient-response and dynamic behavior intact. Inner detail, tone and musicality of the LD/WE91 is what I hope can be extracted (added?) better with such an OPT. I believe the Lux to be a very good re-design of the WE/LD91 - addressing issues with the original, but lacking something, that I believe some tweaking can 'bring back'.
I know the Welbourne-labs DRD 300B amps have been ranked as "one of the best sounding SE 300B amps ever" by 'enjoy the music'. These use Electra Print iron. I could simply just have chosen Electra print. You see, Andy - and others, what I'm actually seeking out myself is an OPT that not only does the job well, but makes the "feeling" of soul (inner detail and tone) to be more 'visible' or perhaps 'added', without subtracting detail, clarity, soundscape (microdynamics) and dynamic behavior. Which OPT can do this the best ... ?
Now that my dark secret is known, I can disclose that currently the Tango FC, Hashimoto and Sowter are ranking high.
- Bring on more SE magic ...
Perhaps I'm going to wind up begging Brian of Sowter and/or Jack of Electra Print to please help me out ... (since this is such small companies that I know offer such good customer relation).
Regards Aril
The driver in the Lux looks like a penthode + cathode-follower, but B. Cherry points out that it doesn't function as such. As he says: "Actually calling the driver stage a cathode follower is missing the picture. The only thing it has in common with a cathode follower is the grid of the power tube is connected to the cathode of the previous tube. But, there is no cap, rather a choke. So best to conceptualize the whole function from past the EF86 coupling cap through to the grid of the 300b as a 'reactive interstage'." Based on reports and design goals and also knowing both the L'Audiophile WE91 and LD91+ sign. character, I believe the Lux to be more dynamic and "direct-sounding". It may lack some "refinement" and "atmosphere" from the original WE91 type design. What I believe is that a well balanced OPT design will be tweaking the performance in a dirrection more resembling the LD/WE91 again, but with the Lux's better transient-response and dynamic behavior intact. Inner detail, tone and musicality of the LD/WE91 is what I hope can be extracted (added?) better with such an OPT. I believe the Lux to be a very good re-design of the WE/LD91 - addressing issues with the original, but lacking something, that I believe some tweaking can 'bring back'.
I know the Welbourne-labs DRD 300B amps have been ranked as "one of the best sounding SE 300B amps ever" by 'enjoy the music'. These use Electra Print iron. I could simply just have chosen Electra print. You see, Andy - and others, what I'm actually seeking out myself is an OPT that not only does the job well, but makes the "feeling" of soul (inner detail and tone) to be more 'visible' or perhaps 'added', without subtracting detail, clarity, soundscape (microdynamics) and dynamic behavior. Which OPT can do this the best ... ?
Now that my dark secret is known, I can disclose that currently the Tango FC, Hashimoto and Sowter are ranking high.
- Bring on more SE magic ...
Perhaps I'm going to wind up begging Brian of Sowter and/or Jack of Electra Print to please help me out ... (since this is such small companies that I know offer such good customer relation).
Regards Aril
I have bullt 4-5 DRD amps for myself and friends. Jack at Electra Print is a friend and I am a very big fan of his transformers. In my humble opinoin Jack's DRD design is one of the better sounding SE 300B circuits I have heard. We compared it to many other designs and found the DRD to have some of the best soul and inner detail. It is difficult to put into words how the DRD sounded better but the soul of the music, the inner detail and pacing of the music was very impressive.
The other aspect is Jack is very easy to work with. He will help with a design if you ask. Jack knows his stuff about tube amps. This has turned in to an unintended eulogy to Electra Print for which I apologize.
The other aspect is Jack is very easy to work with. He will help with a design if you ask. Jack knows his stuff about tube amps. This has turned in to an unintended eulogy to Electra Print for which I apologize.
It's a matter of preference, really. I do have great respect for a nice guy that is Jack, but saying that his DRD 300B amps to be one of the best sounding ever is, again, preference.
I baby sat a pair of Jack Eliano DRD 300B amps, and to be honest with you, I didn't like them. Not that they're bad, but they didn't float my boat.
I baby sat a pair of Jack Eliano DRD 300B amps, and to be honest with you, I didn't like them. Not that they're bad, but they didn't float my boat.
Hi Schiller:
You mention HiB core materials--- and that it has a published sat induction of 19 or 20 kg. But this would not be unique for a good quality core material.
HiB if I recall correctly is the brand name of a particular alloy of electrical steel. And it seems to elicit some oohs and awes--- people thinking it is pretty trick.
Closer to home we do have some awfully good electrical grade silicon steel alloys available for making transformers. The M2, M3, M4 and then the Tran-Cor H-O and Tran-Cor H-1. Both of these later mentioned grades are highly domain refined (by laser scribing) steels with exceptionally low losses, high perms, and sat inductions above 19kg as well.
We have used the M2, M3 and M4 grades quite extensively in our products. And they always work and sound really well. But are much more expensive than M6, M19 and the "inferior" grades moreso commonly used.
for more info on the "superior" grades like the M2, M3, M4, M6 and the Tran-Cor H-0 and Tran-Cor H-1 check out the following url....
http://www.aksteel.com/markets_products/electrical_oriented.asp
on a different note I'm a bit surprised that we have not appeared at all on WE91's radar screen.
Mike
You mention HiB core materials--- and that it has a published sat induction of 19 or 20 kg. But this would not be unique for a good quality core material.
HiB if I recall correctly is the brand name of a particular alloy of electrical steel. And it seems to elicit some oohs and awes--- people thinking it is pretty trick.
Closer to home we do have some awfully good electrical grade silicon steel alloys available for making transformers. The M2, M3, M4 and then the Tran-Cor H-O and Tran-Cor H-1. Both of these later mentioned grades are highly domain refined (by laser scribing) steels with exceptionally low losses, high perms, and sat inductions above 19kg as well.
We have used the M2, M3 and M4 grades quite extensively in our products. And they always work and sound really well. But are much more expensive than M6, M19 and the "inferior" grades moreso commonly used.
for more info on the "superior" grades like the M2, M3, M4, M6 and the Tran-Cor H-0 and Tran-Cor H-1 check out the following url....
http://www.aksteel.com/markets_products/electrical_oriented.asp
on a different note I'm a bit surprised that we have not appeared at all on WE91's radar screen.
Mike
for some history on the development and evolution of the differing grades of silicon steel transformer lams see page 10 of
the following document----
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/electrical/Mag_Cores_Data_Bulletin.pdf
starting from the first patents on grain oriented silicon steels (1933) to the present.
And earlier in the document explains (in summary form) what the M grades mean and explains that different companies use different brand names for these different grades.
HiB is a brand name--- it is (as I recall) essentially a M4 grade of core material.
So if you like or have heard that Hi B is the cat's meow---- you might really enjoy the sonorious purr of M3, M2, Tran-Cor H-0 or Tran-Cor H-1.
Interestingly--- some of these (what I call) supra grades of silicon steel are beginning to approach the cost of the nickel alloy steels and the amorphous iron and amorphous nickels. These supra grades are not your ordinary electrical grade steel laminations by any stretch.
MSL
the following document----
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/electrical/Mag_Cores_Data_Bulletin.pdf
starting from the first patents on grain oriented silicon steels (1933) to the present.
And earlier in the document explains (in summary form) what the M grades mean and explains that different companies use different brand names for these different grades.
HiB is a brand name--- it is (as I recall) essentially a M4 grade of core material.
So if you like or have heard that Hi B is the cat's meow---- you might really enjoy the sonorious purr of M3, M2, Tran-Cor H-0 or Tran-Cor H-1.
Interestingly--- some of these (what I call) supra grades of silicon steel are beginning to approach the cost of the nickel alloy steels and the amorphous iron and amorphous nickels. These supra grades are not your ordinary electrical grade steel laminations by any stretch.
MSL
Andy Bartha said:
I'll agree with everything said about Jack. I have 300B DRD's that use EP Iron. I also have 2 different headphone amps (singlefeed and parafeed) with EP iron and am pleased with both. Additionally, I use EP power iron for most of my other projects.
MQracing said:
I am too. For the record, Jack does not seem to believe in high perm core materials for single feed transformers. You can read what he has to say at http://www.electra-print.com/techblog.php?blogid=4
Mike (MQracing), on the other hand, does not seem to share this opinion and if you are interested in exotic core material, Magnaquest is probably a good place to start. I have some nickel core magnequest parafeed line out transformers that are quite nice.
Another place to look is Intact Audio run by Dave Slagle http://www.intactaudio.com/ Dave is a quite nice guy who has done some interesting things with counter windings to balance DC, etc. Worth checking out.
Hi, Mike ...
Magnequest has been suggested earlier, but I haven't yet picked up on it. I guess the word "parafeed" is coupled to your name in the back of my mind. You have probably also guessed that I have been (mark the past tense) a bit focused on Japanese and European "iron". Electra Print got on "my radar", and not Magnequest because it is "my" radar and it is not in any way perfect. In this thread I am simply out trying to very humbly pick the brains of some of the guys on this fora about my possibility to tweak an amplifier to get some more "magic" out of it (and I am very partial to WE91 type of design). I have had some ideas about manufacturers of OPTs, but it is just based on quite random finds by me over some years now on internet fora and different sites, as well as my own listening impressions of some designs/OPTs. So by writing this, I hereby invite Magnequest on this list - and ask for all comments and feedback on them too.
I see that my original heading for this string should have been changed.
What do you think of my ideas of trying to tweak the Lux in the way described earlier, Mike?
I'm not out for a solid state sounding SET amplifier, I'm out for more inner detail, soundstaging, atmosphere; a true 'be-there feeling' ... Do you believe it is possible to help this along a bit with the correct choice of OPT?
The Lux design that I'm going to build is a further developement on the WE91. I believe it to be a well made design and I am also going to change the EF86 pentodes for We310A's and thus a more true WE91 input with the help this will make in regards to tone and detail.
Regards Aril
Magnequest has been suggested earlier, but I haven't yet picked up on it. I guess the word "parafeed" is coupled to your name in the back of my mind. You have probably also guessed that I have been (mark the past tense) a bit focused on Japanese and European "iron". Electra Print got on "my radar", and not Magnequest because it is "my" radar and it is not in any way perfect. In this thread I am simply out trying to very humbly pick the brains of some of the guys on this fora about my possibility to tweak an amplifier to get some more "magic" out of it (and I am very partial to WE91 type of design). I have had some ideas about manufacturers of OPTs, but it is just based on quite random finds by me over some years now on internet fora and different sites, as well as my own listening impressions of some designs/OPTs. So by writing this, I hereby invite Magnequest on this list - and ask for all comments and feedback on them too.
I see that my original heading for this string should have been changed.
What do you think of my ideas of trying to tweak the Lux in the way described earlier, Mike?
I'm not out for a solid state sounding SET amplifier, I'm out for more inner detail, soundstaging, atmosphere; a true 'be-there feeling' ... Do you believe it is possible to help this along a bit with the correct choice of OPT?
The Lux design that I'm going to build is a further developement on the WE91. I believe it to be a well made design and I am also going to change the EF86 pentodes for We310A's and thus a more true WE91 input with the help this will make in regards to tone and detail.
Regards Aril
Hi again.
Suddenly there's a several "new" guys here (for this thread) contributing to make this thread more valid when talking about an OPTs contribution to the final sound of an SE amplifier. Hi, dsavitsk! You believe I should introduce Intact Audio/Dave Slagle to this list too? Now my radar need servicing I think. This thread is very much based on people giving their subjective impressions on what sound they believe to get from different OPT's. Sometimes this can be related to specific design of winding, core type, core material, laminations, material used for insulation, what purity and material used for wire, varnish used, how potting is done - if it is done, and much more. But always the really good OPT's have good specs. There are many specs that are important and can tell about how good an OPT can be. I'm saying "can be", because balance of sound and a good correlation between many different subjective factors when it comes to how the sound is perceived, is what really makes a good OPT. If this in no way masks details or highlight some effects before others, it may be a good OPT. If it can almost magically make the sound seem more "there", more palpable and present, it will probably get "legendary status". I believe that there's been a hype on the amorphous steel cores ability to make the highs brilliant and mids transparent today. I think coherence, musicality and balance may have suffered from this hype ...
Thanks for the links conserning orient silicone steel grades, Mike!
I have just managed to read some of it now (but will continue), and I'm allready impressed with what this manufacturer have made possible for "guys like you" to play with when it comes to core-material! Why haven't we heard more about this before?
How does steel such as this affect the performance of an OPT?
What are the differences compared to permalloy/radiometal and amorphous? We know that many good OPT's have been made with EI-cores, single and double C cores and even torodial cores (? - none have yet commented Amplimo/Plitron?). How much is due to the core and core material compared to winding method, insulation material, wire used (silver, OCC copper, ...), and so on ... - And most importantly; how "instrumental" is a good OPT in a basically good amplifier circuit to really make it sing!??
Regards Aril
Suddenly there's a several "new" guys here (for this thread) contributing to make this thread more valid when talking about an OPTs contribution to the final sound of an SE amplifier. Hi, dsavitsk! You believe I should introduce Intact Audio/Dave Slagle to this list too? Now my radar need servicing I think. This thread is very much based on people giving their subjective impressions on what sound they believe to get from different OPT's. Sometimes this can be related to specific design of winding, core type, core material, laminations, material used for insulation, what purity and material used for wire, varnish used, how potting is done - if it is done, and much more. But always the really good OPT's have good specs. There are many specs that are important and can tell about how good an OPT can be. I'm saying "can be", because balance of sound and a good correlation between many different subjective factors when it comes to how the sound is perceived, is what really makes a good OPT. If this in no way masks details or highlight some effects before others, it may be a good OPT. If it can almost magically make the sound seem more "there", more palpable and present, it will probably get "legendary status". I believe that there's been a hype on the amorphous steel cores ability to make the highs brilliant and mids transparent today. I think coherence, musicality and balance may have suffered from this hype ...
Thanks for the links conserning orient silicone steel grades, Mike!
I have just managed to read some of it now (but will continue), and I'm allready impressed with what this manufacturer have made possible for "guys like you" to play with
when it comes to core-material! Why haven't we heard more about this before?How does steel such as this affect the performance of an OPT?
What are the differences compared to permalloy/radiometal and amorphous? We know that many good OPT's have been made with EI-cores, single and double C cores and even torodial cores (? - none have yet commented Amplimo/Plitron?). How much is due to the core and core material compared to winding method, insulation material, wire used (silver, OCC copper, ...), and so on ... - And most importantly; how "instrumental" is a good OPT in a basically good amplifier circuit to really make it sing!??
Regards Aril
WE91 said:
Hi Aril:
We've been building series feed conventional output transformers for much longer than we have been building parafeed SE's.
If you had access to some Glass Audio magazines from 1989 and 1990 you would see that close to twenty years ago we were building and offering conventional airgapped single ended outputs. I suspect we were the first US based winder in modern times to build single ended outputs. Before Sound Practices issue No. 1 even hit the streets.
speaking of Sound Practices--- you should try to get issue number 1 if your a WE 91A fan. There was a big write up on the 91 as well as evaluations of perhaps a half dozen SE outputs tranneys for the 91A amp. Including our FS-030.
So... we've been at it a while. I actually had Joe's very own WE91A amp in my house. I like the 91A with the 310A tube driving it. It is a richer, warmer sounding amp with a huge field of sound, a lot of dynamic contrast, and is (done well) non-fatiguing and very involving.
I've joked around in the past and have said that every new person interested in SE amps ought to be required to first spend time with the WE 91A circuit--- to build up a base of their own listening experience and have the inventory of experience to go out on their own in terms of evaluating other amps and etc.
I've enjoyed reading your posts and you seem to have some very good insights into the relations and factors that make for or lead to good sound.
enjoy your journey and best of,
msl
I don't know if you have seen this site, but it may be useful..
http://www.vt4c.com/teach_room/choose_transformer.html
BTW: I have a pair of Daburu XN-3.5/5S laying in my closet. Not the ones described in the article. But amourphous double-c core.
http://diyaudio.hk/content/show/1#
Have not tried them yet.
Since you are Norwegian I noticed that a guy on www.hifisentralen.com was trying to sell a pair of Tommy Hørning toroid OPT's for 300b. Rumours says that it cannot be much better than that.
Of course Audio Note should be considered when you want the best.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/trans/trans_02_output.shtml
Sincerely
http://www.vt4c.com/teach_room/choose_transformer.html
BTW: I have a pair of Daburu XN-3.5/5S laying in my closet. Not the ones described in the article. But amourphous double-c core.
http://diyaudio.hk/content/show/1#
Have not tried them yet.
Since you are Norwegian I noticed that a guy on www.hifisentralen.com was trying to sell a pair of Tommy Hørning toroid OPT's for 300b. Rumours says that it cannot be much better than that.
Of course Audio Note should be considered when you want the best.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/trans/trans_02_output.shtml
Sincerely
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