g2 driven tubes
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 22nd January 2008, 10:16 PM #1 gianis   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: athens g2 driven tubes pls any opinions about g2 driven output TV power tubes,,any sugestions for power amplifiers///
 22nd January 2008, 10:32 PM #2 Fuling   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sweden (Mora) http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/technoteNo33.html http://www.tubes.mynetcologne.de/roe...bpt_sd_33v.pdf The first link shows a complete project, the second goes to a set of measured plate curves for EL509.
Tubes4e4
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Leverkusen
Hi Fuling,

Quote:
 Originally posted by Fuling http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/technoteNo33.html http://www.tubes.mynetcologne.de/roe...bpt_sd_33v.pdf The first link shows a complete project, the second goes to a set of measured plate curves for EL509.
Actually I made the plot (2nd link) exactly for the conditions shown in the 1st link, beacuse I couldnīt believe the plot shown in the 1st link. As it turned out, the plot shown in the first link is not based on read measurements, but a simulation, using an oversimplified model. So much simplified, that it doesnīt make any sense anymore.

To the original poster:

1) Note the very narrow "channel" between the extremely instable area of (even) negative anode impedance and the max. Pd curve: You will have to put the loadline into that narrow channel or else you will experience either danger of Barkhausen oscillations or thermal runaway of the valve (E/PL509 is very prone to it)

2) The g2 current demand when driving g2 is very non-linear, anything else but a linear function. Forget about driving it with anything else than a CF driver using a valve of very high gm, or you will introduce lots of distortion by the current-demand-nonlinearities.

3) There are some more g2-driven plots available on my homepage, see overview at http://www.tubes.mynetcologne.de/roe..._triode_e.html You will notice that the general problems 1) and 2) just remain with other valves and operation points.

All in all, using screen drive is not recommendable for quite some reasons, since the method it is "broken" by pentode/BPT working principles you canīt work arround. This was mentioned already by Professor Barkhausen (this name should ring a bell) about 70 years ago...

Regards,

Tom

P.S.: Here is another project (German) using screen drive: http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Lese...NOLA_SE509.htm
__________________
If in doubt, just measure.

 23rd January 2008, 08:41 PM #4 gianis   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: athens Thanks a lot for the informations...
 23rd January 2008, 08:44 PM #5 SY   On Hiatus     Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Tom, why such a high pre-bias on g1? __________________ "You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
 23rd January 2008, 11:07 PM #6 smoking-amp   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hickory, NC It would seem to me that the g1 grid bias is what's eating up the plate stability space headroom. When the plate drops below the g2 voltage is when trouble starts. Biasing g1 negative pushes up g2's range, causing it to eat into plate voltage range. A low screen voltage horizontal output tube should be preferred I would think, with maybe even a little +bias on g1. Just theorizing here. Don __________________ For English, press 1, For an automated representative, press 2, To stay on the line forever, press 3, To self destruct, press 4, To start over, press 5
 23rd January 2008, 11:12 PM #7 SY   On Hiatus     Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Don, that certainly makes sense to me. As a practical matter, in my amp (6LF6 output stage), g1 is connected directly to the cathode, i.e., a zero pre-bias voltage. __________________ "You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
Tubes4e4
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Leverkusen
Hi Stuart,

Quote:
 Originally posted by SY Tom, why such a high pre-bias on g1?

Well, using considerably lower pre-bias, statical Eg2 must be much lower, too, limiting the possible Eg2 swing range and upping Ig2 and Pg2. Also, the more (negativer) Eg1, the higher is statical stability due to automatic bias self-regulation, just as with any other grounded cathode auto-bias arrangement. This makes sense with such high gm & perveance tubes. You may remember, at ETF06, Tim de Paravincini mentioned, that at least _some_ auto bias is required to keep xL5y9 from runnaway even in plain old BPT mode.

Also, the negativer the pre-bias, the wider the "channel" between max Pd hyperbole and the area of spoiled impedance behaviour you can lay the loadline into, as you can see from this series of plots for SD EL36:

http://www.tubes.mynetcologne.de/roe...ode_sd_15v.pdf

http://www.tubes.mynetcologne.de/roe...ode_sd_20v.pdf

http://www.tubes.mynetcologne.de/roe...ode_sd_25v.pdf

As you can see, it doesnīt make sense to use less than, say, -20V Eg1 with SD EL36, since the spoiled impedance area extends so much.

There is no reason why xL5x9 should behave differently in this regard: Below a certain Eg1 prebias, the spoiled impedance area will overlap the Pd hyperbole, so there is no chance whatsoever to get stable and safe operation for _any_ loadline.

Hence practice confirms that Professor Barkhausen was right.

Regards,

Tom
__________________
If in doubt, just measure.

Tubes4e4
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Leverkusen
Hi Don,

Quote:
 Originally posted by smoking-amp It would seem to me that the g1 grid bias is what's eating up the plate stability space headroom.
No, just the opposite - please have a look at the plot links in my response to Stuart. The negativer the pre-bias, the smaller the spoiled impedance area.

Regards,

Tom
__________________
If in doubt, just measure.

 24th January 2008, 11:11 AM #10 SY   On Hiatus     Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Tom, could you explain to me what you mean by "spoiled impedance?" Looking at those curves, it seems like dropping the g1 prebias makes the negative resistance issue go away. With a low idle current, I don't see the static stability issue (nor have I experienced one). __________________ "You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."

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