Tim: you neglected filament power (my 6528 amp used 400 watts before even turning on the B+ supply) and transformer losses. These are sheer waste.
Joel: Power bandwidth is a different thing than frequency response. Low frequency distortion and damping are other weak points. That's why I use a modded Adcom to drive my subwoofers.
Joel: Power bandwidth is a different thing than frequency response. Low frequency distortion and damping are other weak points. That's why I use a modded Adcom to drive my subwoofers.
POOR BASS??
Hi,
IMO, that is more the fault of most US speaker systems being so current hungry.
If you need current from tubes go for the OTL designs.
If the amp uses an OPT then there is bound to be a compromise between bass and highs.
You simply can't have both unless you want to bi-amp...that's a different story though.
Cheers,
Hi,
IMO, that is more the fault of most US speaker systems being so current hungry.
If you need current from tubes go for the OTL designs.
If the amp uses an OPT then there is bound to be a compromise between bass and highs.
You simply can't have both unless you want to bi-amp...that's a different story though.
Cheers,
It's not nationality, it's physics. Each octave of bass extension requires a quadrupling of excursion. Excursion takes current. Excursion also means return, which means lots of current snapping back at the amp which must be absorbed.
Highly efficient woofers must of necessity be big, so big that I've never heard a horn with true bass extension (though the fellow who built a concrete monster outside of his house, removing a wall for the mouth might be the exception). So, my American woofer is limited in sensitivity to roughly 95 dB/2.83V/m, which still ain't bad, and is pretty close to as good as it gets for something that will fit into a room but get to 15 Hz. And given the relatively benign impedance curve (doesn't go below 6 ohm), this is a speaker that doesn't need gobs of current. Nonetheless, the sound with transistors is noticeably cleaner than any tube amp I've tried, whether ironed or otled. And I don't think I'm the only person with that experience.
BASS FREAKS.
Hi,
LOL.
I bet you're refering to a certain Japanese gentleman as described in a certain French mag?
The main problem with this setup IMO is marrying the tonal character of the sandamps with the thermionic one...tricky business.
Keep in mind that you, as an US citizen are likely living in a much bigger house than the average European.
Also, most horns were designed as "long throw" speakers needed to fill huge spaces with sound.
Adapting them for home use require a complete redesign.
Cheers,
Hi,
LOL.
I bet you're refering to a certain Japanese gentleman as described in a certain French mag?
The main problem with this setup IMO is marrying the tonal character of the sandamps with the thermionic one...tricky business.
Keep in mind that you, as an US citizen are likely living in a much bigger house than the average European.
Also, most horns were designed as "long throw" speakers needed to fill huge spaces with sound.
Adapting them for home use require a complete redesign.
Cheers,
No, actually it was an article in "Audio" perhaps 40 years ago. Though it doesn't surprise me to find that a Japanese fellow has tried this. I would too, if it weren't for the toxic divorce laws here in California.
I don't find tonality to enter into the multiamping question- my sub cuts off at 70 Hz, and the mid-woofer (also driven by a transistor amp) ends in a range (300 Hz) where low-distortion, low Zout tube amps and transistor amps have tonality that I (and my victims in subjective tests) have found to be indistinguishable. Not that I expect you to agree with the last
FWIW, bass players have commented favorably on how string bass is reproduced, finding the overall system superior in that range to anything else they've heard. I don't credit (or debit) the amps in that regard; they just do what they're supposed to do, make a small signal bigger without editorializing. The tough work was the speakers and crossovers.
I don't find tonality to enter into the multiamping question- my sub cuts off at 70 Hz, and the mid-woofer (also driven by a transistor amp) ends in a range (300 Hz) where low-distortion, low Zout tube amps and transistor amps have tonality that I (and my victims in subjective tests) have found to be indistinguishable. Not that I expect you to agree with the last
FWIW, bass players have commented favorably on how string bass is reproduced, finding the overall system superior in that range to anything else they've heard. I don't credit (or debit) the amps in that regard; they just do what they're supposed to do, make a small signal bigger without editorializing. The tough work was the speakers and crossovers.
Relativity
It is a question of relative efficiency, when it comes to "feelings of environmental guilt".
You can't be telling me that feeling guilty about the planet is the driving force in the balance between tubes or transistors! That is sad indeed.
Tell you what...
The inefficient power supply in that electric car is worse. Better yet, the refrigerated water bath machine for that "panic" chill of the wine you forgot to cool...as the brie baked 10 minutes too long in the oven...now THAT consumed a kilowatt-hour in vain!
And for goodness sakes quit using the automatic dishwasher to preheat the dinner plates!
Let's just enjoy the music.
Don't worry...I'll lift the control rods a few extra millimeters for you.
It is a question of relative efficiency, when it comes to "feelings of environmental guilt".
You can't be telling me that feeling guilty about the planet is the driving force in the balance between tubes or transistors! That is sad indeed.
Tell you what...
The inefficient power supply in that electric car is worse. Better yet, the refrigerated water bath machine for that "panic" chill of the wine you forgot to cool...as the brie baked 10 minutes too long in the oven...now THAT consumed a kilowatt-hour in vain!
And for goodness sakes quit using the automatic dishwasher to preheat the dinner plates!
Let's just enjoy the music.
Don't worry...I'll lift the control rods a few extra millimeters for you.
This is very interesting tread. I just started debating with myself which amp to use for my new speaker project:
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10327
200W per ch. mosfet monoblocs that I just finished building for the Lambda bass cabinet, or my trusted 300W monoblocs with 6 of 6550s.
I tested them each, and my choice would be 6550s. With mosfets maybe I have more defined bass, but tubes are just more pleasant. Or lets think this way. Every bass player in the world most likely will use the tube Ampeg amp. What is wrong in replaying it on the same or simillar set up? If guitar amps are all tube ones (Marshal, Fender, VOX...) and if all best mic. preamps are tube ones, are we are trying to add something that doesn't exist with SS amps?
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10327
200W per ch. mosfet monoblocs that I just finished building for the Lambda bass cabinet, or my trusted 300W monoblocs with 6 of 6550s.
I tested them each, and my choice would be 6550s. With mosfets maybe I have more defined bass, but tubes are just more pleasant. Or lets think this way. Every bass player in the world most likely will use the tube Ampeg amp. What is wrong in replaying it on the same or simillar set up? If guitar amps are all tube ones (Marshal, Fender, VOX...) and if all best mic. preamps are tube ones, are we are trying to add something that doesn't exist with SS amps?
I have a small EL84 p-p design that I use with a pair of TLs that I prefer over my A75. It just sounds natural and at the volumes that I listen to, bass is no problem. It also looks cool in the dark. All my kids are older and I have no small animals. I guess I am converted for life I like them so much.
guitar+amp+speaker=instrument.
A tube guitar amp is more likely the culprit (or in this case, hero) "adding something that doesn't exist" but for a musical instrument this is a perfectly acceptable scenario. Even if what comes out of the amp bears no resemblance to what goes in - a disaster for hifi - it doesn't matter at all if what actually comes out is the sound that the musician wants. The amp and the speaker too for that matter are also part of the musical instrument.AR2 said:
planet10 said:
I built it from a design at Gabevee's website. It uses 6EU7s and EL84Ms. I use the Ms because my B+ is slightly higher than Gabes and I wanted the tubes to last a while. I used Hammond 1650Fs, I think, on the output. They are the 25 watt, 7600ct version. I custom build my cases out of oak and the parts count only costs me around $250.00.
I know some people who prefer the sound of an EL84 over some of the more exotic types and I must admit this little amp sounds real natural through my TLs. I think I am about to build a set of Voight Pipes and give those a listen, or perhabs a pair of horns for higher efficiency.
Valves Belong In Museums
I agree with Graham, that the sonics imparted by tube stages are effectively tone controls, and in the application of instrument amplifiers, this is perfectly valid, but for dead clean reproduction, SS wins hands down to my ears, especially for high power levels.
I find 1% THD of tubes to be unacceptably coloured when compared to a clean and nice sounding SS amplifier.
SS amps do not have to get nasty at clip, and the soft overload characteristic of tubes is a false 'niceness' to my ear.
In my experiments of late, I am getting tube 'niceness' out of solid state gear, but with perfect clarity, detail and frequency response.
These experiments of late include applying my technique to a friends outdoor rave system at a bush property on Saturday night.
This system consisted of four Mackie active subs (900W/135dBA peak SPL), and four Mackie active full range cabinets (1300W, 136dBA peak SPL).
These cabinets were running into self limiting all night (pushing 9000W total), so you can imagine the seriously extreme SPL generated.
With my enhancements, the resultantant was the biggest cleanest thing any of you guys have ever heard (or imagined), and powerful such that my sternum, abdomen and legs were vibrating in unison when standing at the focal point and from 80 meters away and sitting at the base of a tree the ground under my bum was vibrating too.
When I got home at 4.30am, from outside I was able to hear the bass coming through from around 6 kilometres away - impressive.
This system was fantastically pleasant and fantastically musical such that it was perfectly ok to stand less than a meter from the cabinets and absolutely no ear irritation or ringing resulted.
Another benefit of this clarity of sound was that everybody could not help being in a completely happy mood - drug effected or not.
So in my experience and view, when done correctly SS wins hands down, and tubes are just not in the race, despite any emotive and nostalgic arguments.
Eric.
I agree with Graham, that the sonics imparted by tube stages are effectively tone controls, and in the application of instrument amplifiers, this is perfectly valid, but for dead clean reproduction, SS wins hands down to my ears, especially for high power levels.
I find 1% THD of tubes to be unacceptably coloured when compared to a clean and nice sounding SS amplifier.
SS amps do not have to get nasty at clip, and the soft overload characteristic of tubes is a false 'niceness' to my ear.
In my experiments of late, I am getting tube 'niceness' out of solid state gear, but with perfect clarity, detail and frequency response.
These experiments of late include applying my technique to a friends outdoor rave system at a bush property on Saturday night.
This system consisted of four Mackie active subs (900W/135dBA peak SPL), and four Mackie active full range cabinets (1300W, 136dBA peak SPL).
These cabinets were running into self limiting all night (pushing 9000W total), so you can imagine the seriously extreme SPL generated.
With my enhancements, the resultantant was the biggest cleanest thing any of you guys have ever heard (or imagined), and powerful such that my sternum, abdomen and legs were vibrating in unison when standing at the focal point and from 80 meters away and sitting at the base of a tree the ground under my bum was vibrating too.
When I got home at 4.30am, from outside I was able to hear the bass coming through from around 6 kilometres away - impressive.
This system was fantastically pleasant and fantastically musical such that it was perfectly ok to stand less than a meter from the cabinets and absolutely no ear irritation or ringing resulted.
Another benefit of this clarity of sound was that everybody could not help being in a completely happy mood - drug effected or not.
So in my experience and view, when done correctly SS wins hands down, and tubes are just not in the race, despite any emotive and nostalgic arguments.
Eric.
Re: Valves Belong In Museums
I find it hard to believe that you talk of a speaker setup in the 135 to 136 db range with enough power to push it into full limit and standing only one meter away have the balls to include the terms fantastically pleasant and fantastically musical in the same post. Was it your intention to insult everyone in this thread? Your going to tell me your system was in full limit all night and expect me to believe that with all that compression going on it sounded so wonderful. You had your head within 1 meter of this spl and your ears didn't ring or hurt yet with that much abuse were supposed to value your opinion because you can hear it? How can you hear anything at all? Thanks alot man.
mrfeedback said:
I find it hard to believe that you talk of a speaker setup in the 135 to 136 db range with enough power to push it into full limit and standing only one meter away have the balls to include the terms fantastically pleasant and fantastically musical in the same post. Was it your intention to insult everyone in this thread? Your going to tell me your system was in full limit all night and expect me to believe that with all that compression going on it sounded so wonderful. You had your head within 1 meter of this spl and your ears didn't ring or hurt yet with that much abuse were supposed to value your opinion because you can hear it? How can you hear anything at all? Thanks alot man.
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