is it correct to calculate OTL?
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 23rd November 2007, 02:40 AM #1 sam8888ysl   diyAudio Member   Join Date: May 2005 Location: Taichung is it correct to calculate OTL? For example use 6S3PEV with variation of Futterman set plate votage 140V and plate current 20ma the internal resist will be 2270 ohm gain will be 50 the output impedance is Rp/2*(1+gain so for two 6S3PEV this will be ~2270/2*(1+50) = 21.8 ohm. and with 6 tubes Zo= 21.8/3= 7.2 ohm but I wander how to calculate the power out? I'm interest in built OTL I had some 6528 6528A they are good for OTL but maybe over heat so I want to built smaller one any advise
 23rd November 2007, 05:33 AM #2 tubetvr diyAudio Member   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sweden The output power in class A will be very low, it can be calculated as: (2 * Ipk)^2 * Rl / 2 = 6 mW for 2 tubes or 54mW for 6 tubes In class AB you can get much higher output power as the peak current can allowed to be higher, output power in class AB is: Ipk^2 * Rl/2 As an example: to get 25W in 8 ohm you need peak current of 2.5A which only the 6C33C can get away with. Regards Hans
schiller
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens
@Hans

Quote:
 Originally posted by tubetvr The output power in class A will be very low, it can be calculated as: (2 * Ipk)^2 * Rl / 2 = 6 mW for 2 tubes or 54mW for 6 tubes In class AB you can get much higher output power as the peak current can allowed to be higher, output power in class AB is: Ipk^2 * Rl/2 As an example: to get 25W in 8 ohm you need peak current of 2.5A which only the 6C33C can get away with. Regards Hans
Hello Hans, how about using an output trans (o.k. no OTL) with low (about 50 Ohm) Primary load? I have made a pair, 120,70,50,16/8 Ohm with 2H pri. Inductance and -3db at 200kHz. Power handling is about 30w/20Hz for 1T induction.
Aim is to get 25-30w with much less current and drive swing.

But i' m a bit confused with the operating point. Should i stay with low voltage/high current ??

Konstantinos

 23rd November 2007, 05:39 PM #4 the_manta   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Munich, Bavaria The problem is not the output impedance. I will get less than 1 ohm with a E55L white-cathode-follower. The Problem is the current. A 8 Ohms speaker already needs a few Amperes for higher output which a tube simply cannot deliver. Regards, Simon
tubetvr
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sweden
Quote:
 But i' m a bit confused with the operating point. Should i stay with low voltage/high current
There is nothing wrong with low voltage, I use +/- 140V in my OTL the problem is the tubes you have chosen they are not suitable for OTL.

Quote:
 A 8 Ohms speaker already needs a few Amperes for higher output which a tube simply cannot deliver.
WRONG! there are at least 2 available tubes that can be used for OTL with good results, either the 6C33C that can deliver in excess of 3A peak with high reliability or EL509 that can deliver 1.5A peak. as an example there is no problem at all to build an OTL with 2 6C33C that can deliver 25W in 8 ohm continuous power and with good reliability.

Regards Hans

 23rd November 2007, 07:01 PM #6 the_manta   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Munich, Bavaria I know these Tubes very well and that they can handle high peak currents..I know even some more of them. I've got a few of the gigantic 7242. They can handle nearly 1A at AVERAGE. But i wouldn't ever consider to use them in an OTL. But that doesn't change the fact that Tubes are not suitable to operate on a 8 ohm load. Maybe they can handle a few Amperes peak. I can handle 200BPM pulse, too. But not all the time !! My post above was ment as a good hint. Nothing else It is much esier und more economic to get the output power using a large voltage delta --> High Z-out --> output transformer as using lots of current to get power out of a tube.
 23rd November 2007, 11:25 PM #7 the_manta   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Munich, Bavaria It's me again.... Just tried to figure out this "25W into 8Ohms" amp. Push Pull class B (must be class B, no Tube can handle such quiescent currents) To get 25W in 8ohms, we will need SQRT(25W/8Ω) ~~ 1,77A continious current. But we have a sine signal and want the 25W with a sine voltage thus sine current (resistive load, "ideal Loudspeaker") So the peak current value is 1,77A*SQRT(2) = 2,5A The tube MUST deliver this 2,5A peak ! At the moment we only know the peak current of the half waves which appear only every second time, cause we're in class B. (graph would look like a half-wave rectifier) Now it's interesting to know the average value of current which would flow through this tube. This equivalent if we want to know what continous current causes the same amount of charge going through the tube as our half-wave-sine So we need to integrate the half sine current over the time and finally divide it by one fixed period (1/T). The *0,5 is needed because of the half waves and not full waves. 0,5 * 1/T * ∫(from 0 to T/2)2,5A * sin(ωt) * δt This results finally in 2,5A/π =~ 0,8A Means: A 25W sine into an 8Ohm load from two Tubes in class B is identical as a continous flow of 0,8A DC through each Tube. This exceeds the legal limit of a 6S33 (350mA per cathode = 700mA) Still can't figure out how to get 25W out of these...OTL sucks Regards, Simon (will go to bed now..)
tubetvr
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sweden
All your calculations are correct but your conclusions are not. It is correct that the average current through each tube will be close to 0.8A when the amplifier is delivering 25W in 8 ohm. What you chose to ignore is that this will never happen continuously when playing music as the peak to average ratio typically is 10 to 20dB which means that the average power is just a fraction of the peak power, this is true for any amplifier playing music be it solid state, tube or whatever.

You write
Quote:
 This exceeds the legal limit of a 6S33 (350mA per cathode = 700mA)
What legal limit? are you afraid of the over-current police ('') The limit given for average anode current in any tube is just a limit to where the manufacturer guarantee that the tube will not fail if that current value is used continuously, one of the nice things about tubes is their ability to take abuse, there is nothing that stops you to exceed the max ratings for many tubes for shorter times without anything bad happen. The 6C33 can take a lot of abuse without any ill effect, I have been running my own OTL at full power 25W in ohm continuously during 24 hours just to see what happens but everything was OK and is still, I have now been using the same set of 6C33Cs for more than 7 years without problems.

I imagine that you don't even realise that there are a variety of OTL amplifiers out there in the market, I would recommend you to listen to some of them before you comment on the possibility to build one. This DIY forum is meant as a way of helping each other and give advice, not discouraging others to try out something new. OTL amplifiers are not just possible to build with easily available tubes they also work just fine with good reliability and give what I believe is the best sound you can get with any kind of amplifier.

Quote:
 must be class B, no Tube can handle such quiescent currents
is also incorrect, AB is also OK as long as the average current during music doesn't exceed the max rating of the tube.

Regards Hans

schiller
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens
Quote:
 Originally posted by tubetvr There is nothing wrong with low voltage, I use +/- 140V in my OTL the problem is the tubes you have chosen they are not suitable for OTL.
You confused my post with someone else's. I have not mentioned any particular tube, only the possibility to use a 50 Ohm/8 Ohm output trans. This way the output tube needs to deliver only 400mA peak for 25 watt, with the drawback of higher peak voltage: about 42 volt instead of 17 with 8 Ohm load.
Thus the question about the op-point.

Quote:
 WRONG! there are at least 2 available tubes that can be used for OTL with good results, either the 6C33C that can deliver in excess of 3A peak with high reliability or EL509 that can deliver 1.5A peak. as an example there is no problem at all to build an OTL with 2 6C33C that can deliver 25W in 8 ohm continuous power and with good reliability. Regards Hans
The last one is for the_manta i suppose, but i must agree, a friends OTL uses the same 6C33 the last 3 years , operating almost every day for a couple of hours. They were very good matched from a batch of A LOT of tubes though. The amp has also survived several partys of his children

Greetings
Konstaninos

tubetvr
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sweden
schiller wrote:
Quote:
 You confused my post with someone else's
Yes I did, sorry about that. Your idea about using a low impedance transformer is interesting and would make it possible to increase power output without additional tubes.

However for me the idea to use a transformer in the amplifier circuit is not an option. I believe that feedback is a friend that helps us to improve amplifiers but only if it is applied in a correct manner, the original Futterman amplifiers have very large degrees of feedback much more than what is possible in a transformer coupled amplifier and these amplifiers are usually rated as giving a very good even top class sound.

In an amplifier with any kind of transformer it will on its own be responsible for introducing phase shift and band edge rolloff which will have an effect on the amount of feedback you can apply.

For your question what voltage and current to apply I would say that it depends on the tube, if you take the 6C33C as an example it is reported to give the best sound when biased at ~200V and ~220mA but I would not go as high in an OTL.

Regards Hans

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