Hi Everyone,
I am ready to re-tube my Audio Research Reference 1. Now I am not to familiar with various
tubes and there sound, but I really do not want to start tube rolling.
Now here is my question the tubes inside my pre-amp are the Sovteks, they have been pretty
good to me , plus they have lasted a long time. There is some quite expensive tubes out there
like the NOS type. Do these Nos tubes make a huge difference? ( Quantum Leap ) or is there a subtle difference? I just need some justification , because a set of 8 Electro Harmonix Gold pin
Matched cost approx. $150.00 and some of these NOS tubes cost $150.00 each? Please if you are a vendor or flip tubes meaning buy and sell , your input will be biased. I spoke to about
5 different NOS tube vendors and all of them had different opinions and they all thought they were better than the other vendor, I am sure someone else has run into this situation? Please give me your honest opinion.
Thank You.
I am ready to re-tube my Audio Research Reference 1. Now I am not to familiar with various
tubes and there sound, but I really do not want to start tube rolling.
Now here is my question the tubes inside my pre-amp are the Sovteks, they have been pretty
good to me , plus they have lasted a long time. There is some quite expensive tubes out there
like the NOS type. Do these Nos tubes make a huge difference? ( Quantum Leap ) or is there a subtle difference? I just need some justification , because a set of 8 Electro Harmonix Gold pin
Matched cost approx. $150.00 and some of these NOS tubes cost $150.00 each? Please if you are a vendor or flip tubes meaning buy and sell , your input will be biased. I spoke to about
5 different NOS tube vendors and all of them had different opinions and they all thought they were better than the other vendor, I am sure someone else has run into this situation? Please give me your honest opinion.
Thank You.
It really depends on the rest of the circuit. NOS tubes do offer an improvement, but it is usually the last thing to worry about. And, I think that rather than spending over $1000 for 8 tubes, you'd do better to buy (or build) a new preamp that uses a better/less expensive tube in smaller quantities. You'll see very few preamps around here that use 8 dual tubes -- one or two is more like it. And, tubes like the 6DJ8, 12AU7, 6SN7, etc. are worth staying away from. Manufacturers use them, presumably because if they used unknown tubes the audiophile cognoscenti wouldn't buy. But, there are better options.
Anyhow, in your case, since you use 6DJ8/6922's I think, the best of the cheapies would be the semi-NOS Philips military tubes (semi NOS because they were made up until the 70's or 80's). The are marginally more expensive than the EH's or the Sovtek's (about $3 more per tube) but are quite close to the more expensive tubes in performance. You can find them at Triode Electronics ( http://triodeelectronics.com/6dec69e8.html )
Anyhow, in your case, since you use 6DJ8/6922's I think, the best of the cheapies would be the semi-NOS Philips military tubes (semi NOS because they were made up until the 70's or 80's). The are marginally more expensive than the EH's or the Sovtek's (about $3 more per tube) but are quite close to the more expensive tubes in performance. You can find them at Triode Electronics ( http://triodeelectronics.com/6dec69e8.html )
Now there's a loaded question! And it's complicated by the fact the one tube that sounds great in one amp may not do so well in another.... then add in personal sound preferences. Then it also depends on what is subtle or a big difference.
Here's my take: yes, for some reason, different makes of the same tube type can sound different, and sometimes the difference can be surprising (in my own experience).
But when I build a circuit, I optimise it with whatever tube I have in there. I suspect companies do the same with their preferred yube. So I figure, you might want to replace with the same thing, unless you have money to throw around on tubes, or actually heard (and prefer) a different one using the same setup you have now.
By the way, I have heard some cheap old Toshiba 12AX7's that I prefer over some pricey Telefunken ones (in one amp... but the difference was small). So I don't take real expensive tubes very seriously. Others may feel different about it....
Here's my take: yes, for some reason, different makes of the same tube type can sound different, and sometimes the difference can be surprising (in my own experience).
But when I build a circuit, I optimise it with whatever tube I have in there. I suspect companies do the same with their preferred yube. So I figure, you might want to replace with the same thing, unless you have money to throw around on tubes, or actually heard (and prefer) a different one using the same setup you have now.
By the way, I have heard some cheap old Toshiba 12AX7's that I prefer over some pricey Telefunken ones (in one amp... but the difference was small). So I don't take real expensive tubes very seriously. Others may feel different about it....
The people most likely to have the answer as to what is currently good, and reliable are likely to be tube vendors - you need someone who is not specifically allied to one brand. I can recommend Jim McShane or Ned Carlson (no longer of Triode fame) as guys who are ethical and will try to steer you in the right direction
I do sell tubes on an infrequent basis, but only to my former customers so I have no agenda by way of disclosure..
I suspect that the ARC Reference 1 was designed and voiced using the tubes originally installed. Given the feedback levels employed in ARC designs and the mix of semi-conductors in the signal path I doubt you are enjoying what most here would consider classic tube sound, the sound of most ARC designs (and I've repaired a few) relates more to circuit design and construction technique than to the specific tubes in it..
Why not just get a set of selected replacement tubes from ARC themselves, these might cost a bit more than the prevailing market, but they will retain the reliability and performance you are accustomed to with your Reference 1.
I do sell tubes on an infrequent basis, but only to my former customers so I have no agenda by way of disclosure..
I suspect that the ARC Reference 1 was designed and voiced using the tubes originally installed. Given the feedback levels employed in ARC designs and the mix of semi-conductors in the signal path I doubt you are enjoying what most here would consider classic tube sound, the sound of most ARC designs (and I've repaired a few) relates more to circuit design and construction technique than to the specific tubes in it..
Why not just get a set of selected replacement tubes from ARC themselves, these might cost a bit more than the prevailing market, but they will retain the reliability and performance you are accustomed to with your Reference 1.
beamnet said:
No, that's 48 euros - about $69
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
7N7
I would agree with that sentiment. I had a MF X10D and thought an upgrade to some nice Mullard NOS would be an improvement. I slipped them in and the sound was bloated and very disappointing. More is not always better as they say.
Reserve expensive tube rolling for your first DIY attempt where you have a bit more control over the end result.
Shoog
Shoog said:
It's just what I suspected, I have been doing some serious internet searching on
various tube sound signatures, and other than what the vendors have to say about them, there is no reference what so ever....... There maybe a couple of people out there, but it' totally controversial or opinionated at most.
Thanks for the replies keep them coming....................
There IS no consistent "sonic signature" to different tubes. It's a matter of how they work in a particular circuit. As soon as someone says something like, "Pre-1967 Mallard 2123x sounds bright and forward," without reference to how it is used, you're dealing with someone who hasn't got a clue. Run.
SY said:
Thank you SY - a voice of sanity coming out of the static.
I will say that certain tubes have certain tendencies almost regardless of the circuit. For instance an EH EL34 will have a hotter top end in almost every case. A 6550A GE will have strong bass in almost every case. A 6SN7GTB RCA will tend to be warm in almost all circuits.
But beyond that generalized description, it's just as SY says. Small detail differences between tubes are very circuit, system, and listener dependent.
Serratoga said:
Just a couple things to think about:
1. ARC stuff can be a bit tube sensitive. I find that quiet tubes are a necessity, not a luxury. I also find some improved results from using tubes with good section balance and gain match.
2. The 6922 EH tube is a significant step up for ARC gear that came with Sovtek 6922. Honestly, it is the ONLY tube I will even sell to an ARC owner. I've learned the hard way. And they are inexpensive, which is a nice plus.
3. Unless you feel some need for it, skip the gold pins. The standard pins are good, and they fit well in the ARC sockets.
Of course tube vendors are prejudiced, but by evaluating the prejuduces you can get a pretty good picture of what to expect. 5 vendors and 5 different opinions means the selection is HIGHLY system/listener (and maybe availability) dependent.
So add my 6th opinion - and I am a vendor. But I specifically do not recommend you spend a lot of money on tubes.
This is my own two cents' worth.........
I initially used four 6SN7's in my Aikido. They were very microphonic, but the cost for the four tubes (new) was only $16 - go figure!
Following tube rolling with medium priced NOS / used tubes, I did find a preference for Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB on the input and Sylvania 6SN7GTA on the output. I was comparing these to tubes such as GE and Magnavox. BUT....the difference wasn't huge.
With my Cornet2 phono-pre. I did find differences between the 12AX7's - again not huge. The non-Mullard labelled Mullards (very used) sounded better (to me) with warmer mids and bass. This contrasted with the detailed and brighter sound of the Telefunken (very used) tubes. Interestingly, the owner of AZ Tube Audio reckons that the Mullards ought to be brighter than the Telefunkens. Again, Go Figure!
For tube rolling, I would suggest looking for cheapish used classic brands such as GE, RCA, Mullard. At least, you'll not lay out a whole bunch of cash on expensive NOS Mullards only to find that you don't like the sound. I expect that if you bought used tubes, tried them a couple of times and didn't stress them, you could probably resell (maybe even quoting the previous seller's tube test data). I would be honest though, and be clear about that something like "FS used Mullard 12AX7, recently bought and used only 1 hour in amp, previous seller's test data was 1800/1900......"
Of course, I have heard good things about the build quality of the Electroharmonix.
Charlie
I initially used four 6SN7's in my Aikido. They were very microphonic, but the cost for the four tubes (new) was only $16 - go figure!
Following tube rolling with medium priced NOS / used tubes, I did find a preference for Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB on the input and Sylvania 6SN7GTA on the output. I was comparing these to tubes such as GE and Magnavox. BUT....the difference wasn't huge.
With my Cornet2 phono-pre. I did find differences between the 12AX7's - again not huge. The non-Mullard labelled Mullards (very used) sounded better (to me) with warmer mids and bass. This contrasted with the detailed and brighter sound of the Telefunken (very used) tubes. Interestingly, the owner of AZ Tube Audio reckons that the Mullards ought to be brighter than the Telefunkens. Again, Go Figure!
For tube rolling, I would suggest looking for cheapish used classic brands such as GE, RCA, Mullard. At least, you'll not lay out a whole bunch of cash on expensive NOS Mullards only to find that you don't like the sound. I expect that if you bought used tubes, tried them a couple of times and didn't stress them, you could probably resell (maybe even quoting the previous seller's tube test data). I would be honest though, and be clear about that something like "FS used Mullard 12AX7, recently bought and used only 1 hour in amp, previous seller's test data was 1800/1900......"
Of course, I have heard good things about the build quality of the Electroharmonix.
Charlie
Well, as I mentioned elsewhere I am now running 5881WXTs in one Quad II and EL34s in the other, pending the arrival of more 5881s.
I have swapped channels and loudspeakers and can detect absolutely no difference. I accept that a difference is likely, but there isn't any! I have read many websites in the search for definitive data on the 5881s and have got nowhere (except for the usual guitar-player nonsense about "distortion characteristics". N.B. I was a professional guitarist for eight years exclusively using valve amplifiers - Marshall, Fender, Hiwatt, Vox etc.).
One site stated that the 5881WXT was "no good for audio"; what does that mean? Works all right here!
7N7
I have swapped channels and loudspeakers and can detect absolutely no difference. I accept that a difference is likely, but there isn't any! I have read many websites in the search for definitive data on the 5881s and have got nowhere (except for the usual guitar-player nonsense about "distortion characteristics". N.B. I was a professional guitarist for eight years exclusively using valve amplifiers - Marshall, Fender, Hiwatt, Vox etc.).
One site stated that the 5881WXT was "no good for audio"; what does that mean? Works all right here!
7N7
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