Good evening DIYaudio,
after constructing the 833A-amplifiers (see the thread "where are the 833 amps"; i've included enough pictures and text) which works great i found a whole bunch of old European transmitting triodes.
Philips TB 3/1000
Although the filament is somewhat different to the 833A (12 V / 8 A instead of 10 V / 10 A) the other characteristics are quite similar.
So i changed the 833A-amps to take the TB 3/1000. Why: because the TB 3/1000 is VERY neatly made. Not like the 833A where the plate simply hangs on the top-connector. No...with the TB 3/1000 the structure is made from bottom up. And any expansion through the heat is being taken care by letting the plate slide on glass rods !
See pictures......it works.
And soundwise.....after 5 hours of playing......musical delight.
I'll add some pictures.
The first a comparison picture of a 833A and a TB 3/1000.
Regards,
Reinout
after constructing the 833A-amplifiers (see the thread "where are the 833 amps"; i've included enough pictures and text) which works great i found a whole bunch of old European transmitting triodes.
Philips TB 3/1000
Although the filament is somewhat different to the 833A (12 V / 8 A instead of 10 V / 10 A) the other characteristics are quite similar.
So i changed the 833A-amps to take the TB 3/1000. Why: because the TB 3/1000 is VERY neatly made. Not like the 833A where the plate simply hangs on the top-connector. No...with the TB 3/1000 the structure is made from bottom up. And any expansion through the heat is being taken care by letting the plate slide on glass rods !
See pictures......it works.
And soundwise.....after 5 hours of playing......musical delight.
I'll add some pictures.
The first a comparison picture of a 833A and a TB 3/1000.
Regards,
Reinout
Attachments
being abroad
Hello Gerd,
just received you message.
My German is hopeless....so it will be in English.
You have to wait a couple of months for i am not in The Netherlands now, were the actual amplifier, my home and all my data (schematics, values, etc) are. Sorry.
If everything goes according to plan i return late July.
Grtz,
Reinout
Hello Gerd,
just received you message.
My German is hopeless....so it will be in English.
You have to wait a couple of months for i am not in The Netherlands now, were the actual amplifier, my home and all my data (schematics, values, etc) are. Sorry.
If everything goes according to plan i return late July.
Grtz,
Reinout
833 or similar
Helle again Gerd,
if you're looking at the 833C (i got a couple of them, sound nice, quite fragile on transport) please do consider alternatives like the TB3/1000. These older triodes are way superior in construction. And soundwise too !
There a a couple of alternatives: SRF and Philips made great triodes at 12 Volt in the 1930's , 1940's. some of them stayed in production for ages for they were never improved. They were already great. A shame that the productionnumbers were always low, even in those days these beauties cost a fortune.
Sorry again: you have to wait a while for i am travelling abroad.
grtz,
Reinout
Helle again Gerd,
if you're looking at the 833C (i got a couple of them, sound nice, quite fragile on transport) please do consider alternatives like the TB3/1000. These older triodes are way superior in construction. And soundwise too !
There a a couple of alternatives: SRF and Philips made great triodes at 12 Volt in the 1930's , 1940's. some of them stayed in production for ages for they were never improved. They were already great. A shame that the productionnumbers were always low, even in those days these beauties cost a fortune.
Sorry again: you have to wait a while for i am travelling abroad.
grtz,
Reinout
hi Reinout,
Thanks for your replies......
Last week,i bought 2 Pieces 833C from China,included Bases and topcaps for 292Euros incl.tax.
I am planning now 2 years to build monsteramps....I own WE212C,,,Klangfilm RV230,,,a real Monster...but i own only 1 piece.
From GU81 i have about 10 Pieces...but this is a Tetrode,,,Then i saw the 833C for "small money" and i decided to take the 833Cs.
It would be a big help for me,if you can tell me the "working-points" of your amps....
Best regards
Gerd
Geplantes Design:
Ecl86 (lt Haas) 300B...Interstage Tango NC20(on stock) 833C
Gleichrichter:2 mal 866Rca
OPT...Custummade von EE (Haas)
Ua:1KV
Nutzleistung:20-40W
PS.: I would like to take an "European Tube" like the super TB3/1000,but i need at least 4 Pieces (2 in reserve) to build the amp,and the 833c is easy to get now.....****
Thanks for your replies......
Last week,i bought 2 Pieces 833C from China,included Bases and topcaps for 292Euros incl.tax.
I am planning now 2 years to build monsteramps....I own WE212C,,,Klangfilm RV230,,,a real Monster...but i own only 1 piece.
From GU81 i have about 10 Pieces...but this is a Tetrode,,,Then i saw the 833C for "small money" and i decided to take the 833Cs.
It would be a big help for me,if you can tell me the "working-points" of your amps....
Best regards
Gerd
Geplantes Design:
Ecl86 (lt Haas) 300B...Interstage Tango NC20(on stock) 833C
Gleichrichter:2 mal 866Rca
OPT...Custummade von EE (Haas)
Ua:1KV
Nutzleistung:20-40W
PS.: I would like to take an "European Tube" like the super TB3/1000,but i need at least 4 Pieces (2 in reserve) to build the amp,and the 833c is easy to get now.....****
833c project
Hi Gerd,
first sorry for the late reply. currently i'm in Kandahar (Afghanistan) but tomorrow i'l be off to a new location. And this will be ongoing for the next couple of months.
To be honest i'm happy THAT i'm typing at the moment.....
The plan el86 - C - 300B - IT - 833C does seem feasable. That IT must be GREAT for it will shovel loads of milliamperes to the grid of the 833C. It depends on what voltages you're going to work but at 1000 volt we're talking at 250-ish milliamperes. Before frying your expensive Tango please chack if this can take that hammering. I have had a E96x55 tranny specifically designed to do that job.
Than the IT-ratio. Is it a 1:1-affair ? The 300b ahs a 3K-ish output and with a 1:1 IT this impemdance will feed the 833C-grid. that will not work for these kind of tubes want to be drive by LOW impendances. That's why my IT is a 1:4 downstepped interstage. 3K:16......less than 200 ohm. That works.
The beast in a 833c will be released by the combination of driving power (lots of miliampers) AND low impendance.
This is significantly different ot a 212C. This can be driven much easier.
To be honest: the output stage of my amp is simply large....but not difficult. The key-element in the amplifier is the driverstage !
I guess yu already searched through this forum at "where are the 833A amps ?" i have a lot of data, power requirements, voltages etc already put in that thread. Maybe for you to use. Currently i don't have details of all you questions available and it's a bit hard to do everything by memory.
When i return to the Netherlands you're much welcome !
I do have a serious stack of TB3/1000's. But they will not be for free. An 833C will be cheaper (to put in politically correct).
Once again sorry for the awkardly irregular responses.
Regards,
Reinout
(very pleased that there will be another 833-builder out there !)
Hi Gerd,
first sorry for the late reply. currently i'm in Kandahar (Afghanistan) but tomorrow i'l be off to a new location. And this will be ongoing for the next couple of months.
To be honest i'm happy THAT i'm typing at the moment.....
The plan el86 - C - 300B - IT - 833C does seem feasable. That IT must be GREAT for it will shovel loads of milliamperes to the grid of the 833C. It depends on what voltages you're going to work but at 1000 volt we're talking at 250-ish milliamperes. Before frying your expensive Tango please chack if this can take that hammering. I have had a E96x55 tranny specifically designed to do that job.
Than the IT-ratio. Is it a 1:1-affair ? The 300b ahs a 3K-ish output and with a 1:1 IT this impemdance will feed the 833C-grid. that will not work for these kind of tubes want to be drive by LOW impendances. That's why my IT is a 1:4 downstepped interstage. 3K:16......less than 200 ohm. That works.
The beast in a 833c will be released by the combination of driving power (lots of miliampers) AND low impendance.
This is significantly different ot a 212C. This can be driven much easier.
To be honest: the output stage of my amp is simply large....but not difficult. The key-element in the amplifier is the driverstage !
I guess yu already searched through this forum at "where are the 833A amps ?" i have a lot of data, power requirements, voltages etc already put in that thread. Maybe for you to use. Currently i don't have details of all you questions available and it's a bit hard to do everything by memory.
When i return to the Netherlands you're much welcome !
I do have a serious stack of TB3/1000's. But they will not be for free. An 833C will be cheaper (to put in politically correct).
Once again sorry for the awkardly irregular responses.
Regards,
Reinout
(very pleased that there will be another 833-builder out there !)
833..what else....
Hi Reinout....
My goodness....u are in Afg...sure a pretty dangerous place in the world..
really thank god,that u are ok,and write me...
I read the whole thread "833c"...and now i hope,i know what to do..forget the Tangointerstage..thanx a lot...i will order a new one..bigger one...i will take for the last stage:
grid:zero bias
anode:1kv/1,1kv..
OPT:ca 5k...
Now i order the trannies...and i hope...when u are back in NL...they are running....
but then,u have to plan a visit to the sunny BAVARIA near Munich...and come to me...and have a long long long look..
Good luck,
Gerd
PS...and then,we talk about TB3/100..and other things..what we have build..and we will build..
Hi Reinout....
My goodness....u are in Afg...sure a pretty dangerous place in the world..
really thank god,that u are ok,and write me...
I read the whole thread "833c"...and now i hope,i know what to do..forget the Tangointerstage..thanx a lot...i will order a new one..bigger one...i will take for the last stage:
grid:zero bias
anode:1kv/1,1kv..
OPT:ca 5k...
Now i order the trannies...and i hope...when u are back in NL...they are running....
but then,u have to plan a visit to the sunny BAVARIA near Munich...and come to me...and have a long long long look..
Good luck,
Gerd
PS...and then,we talk about TB3/100..and other things..what we have build..and we will build..
Since I see some interest over this beautiful tube, I happen to have access to some quantity of these NOS in their boxes, surplus to my needs as I will probably never build such a dangerous amp. If anybody is interested please pm me for further details.
Excellent job Reinout, wish I had the time and guts to build something similar to your amp!
Excellent job Reinout, wish I had the time and guts to build something similar to your amp!
Building is satisfying
Hello Gerd,
indeed south-Afghanistan is a dangerous place. But it is my job.....
I do miss my audio however. When i return in a couple of months i'm already sorry for the neighbours.......
looking back at my replies i spotted some errors for i changed the IT and OPT sometimes.
You are looking for a potent driver (300b will do nicely). You can have 2 ways op building here: or go for the classical A, negatively biased, high voltage desing.
Or go for the lower voltage, A2 biased design.
seeing the voltages you're going to work with (same as my amps) it looks like a A2 design zero bias. So you're going to positively drive the grid. It works very well but as stated in my earlier post you MUST drive with low impendance. Otherwise the 833 (or other potent transmitting triode) will simply not come alive.
With a 300b you must have a 4:1 downstepped interstage. This will lead to a low 200 ohm driver design.
With a 6C33 you can use a easier interstage-ratio. 4:1 interstages are by definition one-offs. so you have to pay for them (seriously). The amount of milliamperes that the IT must withstand is of course no more than the output of the driver (here i mixed up the 250 milliampers in my earlier mail....that's the OPT-milliamperes).
The 5K-OPT is a beast. But there are options to withstand the ridiculous magnetics here. 1000 Volt and 250 Milliamperes in a standard EI-package will lead to a HUGE transformer. With a grand air-gap in order to avoid the really present saturation. But an airgap is by definition a shortcircuit in you precious transformer. You can cheat here quite easily with a parafeed-design. This coil will take the DC-saturation away from the OPT. So my OPT is a mere EI126 (with minute air-gap in order to quench the last remains of saturation). This works brilliant. Of course this is an extra trnasformer/coil in the powersupply line....but this even smoothen the powersupply ripple. So you gain ! This is a quite standard technique .
May i suggest a 2 chamber bobbin on which the parafeedcoil will be wound. This will bring any RF-hash to XX KHz...out of hearing.
We must meet live for we have too many ideas in common. And i have quite a stash of very good high voltage stuff (caddock resistors, IXYS hexfreds, kaptonfoil, johnsons feedtroughs, etc)
Grtz
reinout
Hello Gerd,
indeed south-Afghanistan is a dangerous place. But it is my job.....
I do miss my audio however. When i return in a couple of months i'm already sorry for the neighbours.......
looking back at my replies i spotted some errors for i changed the IT and OPT sometimes.
You are looking for a potent driver (300b will do nicely). You can have 2 ways op building here: or go for the classical A, negatively biased, high voltage desing.
Or go for the lower voltage, A2 biased design.
seeing the voltages you're going to work with (same as my amps) it looks like a A2 design zero bias. So you're going to positively drive the grid. It works very well but as stated in my earlier post you MUST drive with low impendance. Otherwise the 833 (or other potent transmitting triode) will simply not come alive.
With a 300b you must have a 4:1 downstepped interstage. This will lead to a low 200 ohm driver design.
With a 6C33 you can use a easier interstage-ratio. 4:1 interstages are by definition one-offs. so you have to pay for them (seriously). The amount of milliamperes that the IT must withstand is of course no more than the output of the driver (here i mixed up the 250 milliampers in my earlier mail....that's the OPT-milliamperes).
The 5K-OPT is a beast. But there are options to withstand the ridiculous magnetics here. 1000 Volt and 250 Milliamperes in a standard EI-package will lead to a HUGE transformer. With a grand air-gap in order to avoid the really present saturation. But an airgap is by definition a shortcircuit in you precious transformer. You can cheat here quite easily with a parafeed-design. This coil will take the DC-saturation away from the OPT. So my OPT is a mere EI126 (with minute air-gap in order to quench the last remains of saturation). This works brilliant. Of course this is an extra trnasformer/coil in the powersupply line....but this even smoothen the powersupply ripple. So you gain ! This is a quite standard technique .
May i suggest a 2 chamber bobbin on which the parafeedcoil will be wound. This will bring any RF-hash to XX KHz...out of hearing.
We must meet live for we have too many ideas in common. And i have quite a stash of very good high voltage stuff (caddock resistors, IXYS hexfreds, kaptonfoil, johnsons feedtroughs, etc)
Grtz
reinout
TB3/1000
Hello Panos,
thanks for the appreciation for the amps. dangerous.......only if you don't have respect for that voltage. And respect for the weight (it will break your back).
Of course i'm interesting in the TB3's. Do you have only TB3/1000's or also TB3/2000's ?
Can you please mail me at my temporarily hotmail-account: reinout-devries AT hotmail.com ?
There very nice tubes and will last a lifetime; why don't you built yourself ?
Looking forward to your reply.
Regards,
Reinout
Hello Panos,
thanks for the appreciation for the amps. dangerous.......only if you don't have respect for that voltage. And respect for the weight (it will break your back).
Of course i'm interesting in the TB3's. Do you have only TB3/1000's or also TB3/2000's ?
Can you please mail me at my temporarily hotmail-account: reinout-devries AT hotmail.com ?
There very nice tubes and will last a lifetime; why don't you built yourself ?
Looking forward to your reply.
Regards,
Reinout
SHiFTY said:
I have to second that... it looks gorgeous, but is unacceptable for safety. You should not have that exposed... people are clumsy... it is poor design. I'm sorry... not trying to be mean... but the risk of human injury is not worth the look... cover it with glass... enclose the leads somehow... something.
It looks like you have some Avalons? Right? I've heard a few pair and was mighty impressed... I'm sure it does sound wonderful... I just cannot fully enjoy it with the tube exposed like that however... your, your family and your friends safety is your responsibility when you do DIY... and this is not sufficient...
Re: Building is satisfying
Hi Reinout,
Once more thanks for your help...
OK,i will build the amps with 833C..AND TB3/1000..
I think,i can change te 833chinese-socket tu use the TB3/1000....for measuring and hearing...
the heating i will do for 10V and 12V......
the problem is:i get the TB3/1000 in 3 days....but no sockets and Top-clips......do you have a source to get them?..
I let them run in A2 with zero-bias....1KV UA.
For the Interstage i use the design from my former (10years) 300B OPT, sec.to 200Ohm.....4:1..like u.
For your idea with the choke,to do the OPT mor easier,i speak with Gerhard Haas from Experience Electronics...an old friend of mine....who was winding all my trannies the last 20 years...
I look forward to see u...and hear from u...
Take care...
Gerd
Building is satisfying Post #13 Hi Reinot,
MY EMAIL,THE NEXT DAYS: gerd.kurz@gmx.de
Last edited by swl1952 on 04-19-2008 at 09:23 AM
IP: 89.49.162.xxx
New Post Today, at 09:17 AM
Click Here to Email swl1952 Quote:
ReinoutdV said:
Hi Reinout,
Once more thanks for your help...
OK,i will build the amps with 833C..AND TB3/1000..
I think,i can change te 833chinese-socket tu use the TB3/1000....for measuring and hearing...
the heating i will do for 10V and 12V......
the problem is:i get the TB3/1000 in 3 days....but no sockets and Top-clips......do you have a source to get them?..
I let them run in A2 with zero-bias....1KV UA.
For the Interstage i use the design from my former (10years) 300B OPT, sec.to 200Ohm.....4:1..like u.
For your idea with the choke,to do the OPT mor easier,i speak with Gerhard Haas from Experience Electronics...an old friend of mine....who was winding all my trannies the last 20 years...
I look forward to see u...and hear from u...
Take care...
Gerd
Building is satisfying Post #13 Hi Reinot,
MY EMAIL,THE NEXT DAYS: gerd.kurz@gmx.de
Last edited by swl1952 on 04-19-2008 at 09:23 AM
IP: 89.49.162.xxx
New Post Today, at 09:17 AM
Click Here to Email swl1952 Quote:
3 x reply
Hello SHIFTY and Cycline3,
you are right with the dangerous exposed anodes and filaments. But this is how the tube is made. And this triode simply becomes VERY hot. so this means or blowing forced air (lot of noise and the danger of single sided cooling....risk of cracks) or convection heat. the last is standard; it's how i do it. simple with an exposed tube.
But
Because i don't want te be known as the local terminator / death doctor /etc i made a cage around the exposed tubes. This stainless steel cage fits beautifully and has holes to let the warm air escape. the holes are small enough to withstand poking childrens fingers. But when i'm alone and listening.......no cage. this tube is a beauty to look at; especially when switched on.
To be honest: i do have a own audioroom where there is only one thing: my audioset. so it's quite easy to seperate it to the rest of the house. Evn then: when visitors are there....cage in place.
hopefully this will easy your mind and make me look a bit more realistic.
The speakers are Avalon-look-a-likes. self made. The units are Thiel. the woodwork is 6 cm thick at the baffle, 3 cm at the sides. The crossover is a serious affair of Mundorf Silver/Gold capacitors and Mundorf coils.
They stand on a 30 kg blok of granite. not glass ! The bass form these speakers is very good, but without the mass of the granite the bass is to easily transferred into the floor. I do not like that. So the speakers are set on spikes; placed on the granite block.
It works.
Gerd: the original feet (and anode connectors) are made of unobtanium. But there is a wonderful alternative which works great/stable/safe. For that i simply have to be back in the Netherlands to send you the stuff. Sorry....i can not do that from here.
I even think i have a couple of the connectors lying around. For the sockets i must purchase the alternative in a local shop.
Grtz,
Reinout
Hello SHIFTY and Cycline3,
you are right with the dangerous exposed anodes and filaments. But this is how the tube is made. And this triode simply becomes VERY hot. so this means or blowing forced air (lot of noise and the danger of single sided cooling....risk of cracks) or convection heat. the last is standard; it's how i do it. simple with an exposed tube.
But
Because i don't want te be known as the local terminator / death doctor /etc i made a cage around the exposed tubes. This stainless steel cage fits beautifully and has holes to let the warm air escape. the holes are small enough to withstand poking childrens fingers. But when i'm alone and listening.......no cage. this tube is a beauty to look at; especially when switched on.
To be honest: i do have a own audioroom where there is only one thing: my audioset. so it's quite easy to seperate it to the rest of the house. Evn then: when visitors are there....cage in place.
hopefully this will easy your mind and make me look a bit more realistic.
The speakers are Avalon-look-a-likes. self made. The units are Thiel. the woodwork is 6 cm thick at the baffle, 3 cm at the sides. The crossover is a serious affair of Mundorf Silver/Gold capacitors and Mundorf coils.
They stand on a 30 kg blok of granite. not glass ! The bass form these speakers is very good, but without the mass of the granite the bass is to easily transferred into the floor. I do not like that. So the speakers are set on spikes; placed on the granite block.
It works.
Gerd: the original feet (and anode connectors) are made of unobtanium. But there is a wonderful alternative which works great/stable/safe. For that i simply have to be back in the Netherlands to send you the stuff. Sorry....i can not do that from here.
I even think i have a couple of the connectors lying around. For the sockets i must purchase the alternative in a local shop.
Grtz,
Reinout