POLICY.
Hi Bob,
My thoughts exactly, which is why I mentioned the Superblack product by JVC.
Basically it did remove any static from plastics and prevented new static build-up.
If this is what the Tubeolator does than why not say so?
No,they prefer to go the mystery tour charging big bucks for hot air.
That is what makes it snake-oil,no?
Sorry, feel free to try it if you must and if it has such a positive effect as they claim than we'll see.
Although I am sure to arrive at a similar result at 1/100 of the asking price, don't you?
Oh,and what is it they mean when they say "sounds like tubes"?
I wouldn't know what tubes sound like and I've listened to quite a few of them.
Ciao,
Hi Bob,
My thoughts exactly, which is why I mentioned the Superblack product by JVC.
Basically it did remove any static from plastics and prevented new static build-up.
If this is what the Tubeolator does than why not say so?
No,they prefer to go the mystery tour charging big bucks for hot air.
That is what makes it snake-oil,no?
Sorry, feel free to try it if you must and if it has such a positive effect as they claim than we'll see.
Although I am sure to arrive at a similar result at 1/100 of the asking price, don't you?
Oh,and what is it they mean when they say "sounds like tubes"?
I wouldn't know what tubes sound like and I've listened to quite a few of them.
Ciao,
I'd like to think that most people stopped in the street could give a rough explanation of the workings of the internal combustion engine, particularly now that the driving test has a theoretical element.
Yes, screening ICs and applying goo to their bodies can make a difference. The effects of screening are easily measured, and although I doubt that I would be able to measure the difference in microphony from applying goo, I will accept that parts of an analogue IC could act as a strain gauge microphone.
The point of all the scoffing is that for $59 one could invest in some real engineering to improve identified problems with predictable and measurable results that might have some relation to the outlay.
Yes, screening ICs and applying goo to their bodies can make a difference. The effects of screening are easily measured, and although I doubt that I would be able to measure the difference in microphony from applying goo, I will accept that parts of an analogue IC could act as a strain gauge microphone.
The point of all the scoffing is that for $59 one could invest in some real engineering to improve identified problems with predictable and measurable results that might have some relation to the outlay.
SY said:
Don't mention it, Sy.
Glad to have been of assistance in helping you to live with yourself!
As far as most others are concerned, I am also glad that at least one or two are starting to think a little bit about the subject, and what (if anything!) for DIYers, might be worth trying instead.
However long I live I will never understand the mentality of people who simply appear to take a delight in having an armchair 'pop' at the efforts of others, or taking a cheap shot at those who will stand up for what they know, but, it takes all sorts.
Precisely what the first 19 posts on this Forum had to do with DIY Audio, I still don't understand, but they certainly did nothing to advance the science/art as far as I was concerned, when I read them.
Regards,
Bob,
After reading the Altmann page about the "TUBE-O-LATOR", it seems more like a fashion statement than anything else. You know you've spent money on your amp, and therefore it must sound better. I'm not sure if what they're selling is the result of real research and validation of any kind. If you're selling a product, especially at such ridiculous prices ($59: roughly four times what I earn in a day), it must be backed up by research conducted not at the customers expense, but that of the seller. This can at least justify the cost. Otherwise you pay them the cost of raw materials alone, which may have prompted the, uh, wild speculations of others on this board.
In fact, I would probably extend this to include a lot of other stuff I see bandied about on audio forums and websites, such as filter capacitors which use a special paper in which the electrolyte is soaked have a "marked" effect on the audio. How marked? Elna refuses to comment. I'm not about to spend extra to find out.
Altmann also claims that performance can be monitored by a spectrum analyzer. Any spectrum analyzer "before-and-after" shots? Perhaps they may have not done so for fear they wont be believed anyway, but if they were serious, there should be some numbers and graphs other than the cost of their product.
After reading the Altmann page about the "TUBE-O-LATOR", it seems more like a fashion statement than anything else. You know you've spent money on your amp, and therefore it must sound better. I'm not sure if what they're selling is the result of real research and validation of any kind. If you're selling a product, especially at such ridiculous prices ($59: roughly four times what I earn in a day), it must be backed up by research conducted not at the customers expense, but that of the seller. This can at least justify the cost. Otherwise you pay them the cost of raw materials alone, which may have prompted the, uh, wild speculations of others on this board.
In fact, I would probably extend this to include a lot of other stuff I see bandied about on audio forums and websites, such as filter capacitors which use a special paper in which the electrolyte is soaked have a "marked" effect on the audio. How marked? Elna refuses to comment. I'm not about to spend extra to find out.
Altmann also claims that performance can be monitored by a spectrum analyzer. Any spectrum analyzer "before-and-after" shots? Perhaps they may have not done so for fear they wont be believed anyway, but if they were serious, there should be some numbers and graphs other than the cost of their product.
Hi Roadkill,
Thanks, I don't mean to seem ungrateful, but I had already read and understood all that.
However, whether the makers (or anyone else) are just lousy at their job of advertising, or whatever, it still has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of the product.
Regrettably, this is just another example of what I meant when I referred to "clear thinking".
I am not vindicating the product in any way, since, as I made absolutely clear, I have not even seen this Tubolator, but neither, it seems from what was said, had the 19 posters before I read this thread.
The difference is that I am still prepared to keep an open mind about it, until I know some more facts about the product and have tried it (which will never happen at this price!) and I don't see any sense in all of these posts ridiculing it.
Regards,
Thanks, I don't mean to seem ungrateful, but I had already read and understood all that.
However, whether the makers (or anyone else) are just lousy at their job of advertising, or whatever, it still has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of the product.
Regrettably, this is just another example of what I meant when I referred to "clear thinking".
I am not vindicating the product in any way, since, as I made absolutely clear, I have not even seen this Tubolator, but neither, it seems from what was said, had the 19 posters before I read this thread.
The difference is that I am still prepared to keep an open mind about it, until I know some more facts about the product and have tried it (which will never happen at this price!) and I don't see any sense in all of these posts ridiculing it.
Regards,
Bobken said:
If I were to stop a hundred people in the street and ask them if they understood the working principles of an internal combustion engine, I doubt that even one of them could. And if I then went on to explain that it is 'a series of controlled explosions' (since this is precisely what happens in all conventional petrol, deisel, and Wankel etc. engines), they would doubtless run for cover!
However, this does not prevent *any* of them from making extremely good use of the (I.C.E) device in their cars each day!!
Regards,
I Just have to say this: a combustion engine does not perform a controlled explosion it performs a controlled combustion. One explosion is enough to ruin a motor if you/it have a bad day. especially on turbocharged engines (ask me I know, it looks like someone wacked the piston with a hammer(big)).
About the "snake oil" it sounds like you could take some graphite powder like used for locks and some glue to try it out for a lot less money.
Keld
bobken is actually expressing the view of the majority of audiophiles nowadays, which is: the only valid measurement is subjective listening. How do I disprove that you hear a difference? I can't.
Bob, there are some things that are not worth defending, and this is most certainly one of those things. Anyone who buys this stuff is groping in the dark at best, and I feel pity for them.
Just as I feel a bit sorry for the guy shelling out $20 for a paper-oil capacitor. Poor chaps.
Bob, there are some things that are not worth defending, and this is most certainly one of those things. Anyone who buys this stuff is groping in the dark at best, and I feel pity for them.
Just as I feel a bit sorry for the guy shelling out $20 for a paper-oil capacitor. Poor chaps.
But the resistors are not radially symmetrical; their long direction (which is the direction of signal flow) will clearly interact with the north-to-south lines of magnetic force that the earth has. Muslims should point the resistors East. Aussies and Kiwis need to turn American and European-made gear upside down. Canadians need to orient the resistors to form a hockey stick shape; applications of maple syrup can also be useful.
Haven't you noticed that circuit boards laid out according to the ancient and respected principles of Feng Shui outperform even the point-to-point stuff so beloved of the geek community? The hell with the sort of foolish work done by charlatans like Floyd Toole, Ken Kantor, Mark Davis, Stanley Lipschitz, Peter Walker, Sig Linkwitz and the like. REAL progress is made by thinking outside the Eurocentric patriarchal imperialist limitations of rationality and the Enlightenment.
Excuse me, it's time for my next lithium dose.
Haven't you noticed that circuit boards laid out according to the ancient and respected principles of Feng Shui outperform even the point-to-point stuff so beloved of the geek community? The hell with the sort of foolish work done by charlatans like Floyd Toole, Ken Kantor, Mark Davis, Stanley Lipschitz, Peter Walker, Sig Linkwitz and the like. REAL progress is made by thinking outside the Eurocentric patriarchal imperialist limitations of rationality and the Enlightenment.
Excuse me, it's time for my next lithium dose.
Eeeediots Abound.
I could not have experessed this better myself.
$100,000 per litre does sound like a ridiculous figure,
but $50 to transform your sytem to one that you prefer, like and enjoy long term sounds just perfect to me - Just different ways of looking at the same thing.
I expect that as the stuff dries and contracts, the carbon particles form a conductive layer - this may explain the 20 day change period.
I do notice that among the older guys here, many have tried different tweaks, and do understand that any little difference in a system can effect sonics, and by varying degrees and natures.
Pity about the less experienced (and less intelligent) ones here.
Yes, it don't matter a hoot about how it works exactly.
What does matter is the amount of change and the nature of the change.
It is possible ime, to make strong changes that drive you out the room in 5 seconds, and to make nice ones that are subtle.
The trick is to make a strong and nice change that remains perfectly acceptable long term (and I believe I have cracked that one).
Eric.
Thanks Bob,Reading all that has been posted in this thread so far, makes me realise just why it is that so little progress is being made in the pursuit of improving the performance of audio equipment.
Talk about a triumph of knee-jerk reactions and uncontrolled emotions, over common-sense and clear thinking!
If only you could widen your perceptive horizons wide enough, you might just be able to divorce the (ridiculous!) cost of this product, from its potential efficacy.
I could not have experessed this better myself.
I am curious to hear the sonic effect of this stuff too, though I am reasonably confident that I can hear it already.
$100,000 per litre does sound like a ridiculous figure,
but $50 to transform your sytem to one that you prefer, like and enjoy long term sounds just perfect to me - Just different ways of looking at the same thing.
Yes, I would be perfectly willing too.
Sticking just about anything on top a chip will change sonics ime, sometimes subtle, sometimes not, sometimes a nice change, and usually not.
Looks to me like carbon powder in (even C37 ?) some kind of laquer.
I expect that as the stuff dries and contracts, the carbon particles form a conductive layer - this may explain the 20 day change period.
Bob, Ya just have to get used to the 'legends in the own lunchtimes' types around here - remember an empty vessel makes the most noise.
I do notice that among the older guys here, many have tried different tweaks, and do understand that any little difference in a system can effect sonics, and by varying degrees and natures.
Pity about the less experienced (and less intelligent) ones here.
Thanks for understanding me there.
Yes, it don't matter a hoot about how it works exactly.
What does matter is the amount of change and the nature of the change.
It is possible ime, to make strong changes that drive you out the room in 5 seconds, and to make nice ones that are subtle.
The trick is to make a strong and nice change that remains perfectly acceptable long term (and I believe I have cracked that one).
Eric.
Hi,
What a surprise, and now I should add to my earlier remarks over posters inability to "think clearly" that it might be as well if people could *also* "read clearly", as it is apparently beyond the abilities of some posters in this thread.
Joel,
If you will do yourself the favour of having another attempt at reading what I actually said (second time lucky, perhaps!) you will find it was "the profiteering attitude of the......... will do nothing to influence me, nor to close my mind to the ***possibility*** of its worth in achieving what it is stated to do."
Almost anything in life is ***possible***, and I made no comment whatsoever on the ***likelihood*** of it being effective or whatever, but I did add that it will almost certainly "have some effect", although again I did not suggest that any (possible) effect would be good, bad, or whatever else!
If that is as, you suggest, " expressing the view of the majority of audiophiles" then it is the first I have heard of it!
Perhaps also when you read what I said for the second time, you will also appreciate that ***nowhere*** have I even made any attempt to "defend" as you say ***anything***, so that rather patronising remark is about as appropriate here as it is for people to judge this product without even knowing much about it, or trying it!
Keld,
I trust your knowledge of audio is just a little better than it is of vehicle engines.
Having rebuilt many rally car engines for a living and seen all of the damage which pistons are subjected to, there are two reasons for pistons to become 'holed' (during operation) which is what you are referring to here.
The first, and most common, is when a valve is 'dropped' which is the result of failure of (usually) the stem collets, or occasionally the top cap, but it can sometimes happen that when a timing chain fails or a gear 'jumps a cog' under stress, the piston can collide with a valve because the valve timing gets out of synchronisation with crankshaft rotation.
The other reason is when a piston simply melts, either due to a mixture which is too lean (which reduces the cooling effect of the inlet charge) or occasionally when the ignition timing is set too far advanced (which is known as 'pinking' or 'detonation').
This second type of failure takes some time to occur as the heat builds up gradually, and neither type of problem could possibly be caused by any 'untoward' internal explosion as you suggest, and neither can it affect Wankel engines which do not have pistons anyway.
I repeat that the operation *is* the result of "a series of *controlled* explosions" as any knowledgeable engineer will be able to confirm, when a homogeneous mixture of petrol and air in the approximate ratio of 14:1 by weight, is ignited.
Regards,
What a surprise, and now I should add to my earlier remarks over posters inability to "think clearly" that it might be as well if people could *also* "read clearly", as it is apparently beyond the abilities of some posters in this thread.
Joel,
If you will do yourself the favour of having another attempt at reading what I actually said (second time lucky, perhaps!) you will find it was "the profiteering attitude of the......... will do nothing to influence me, nor to close my mind to the ***possibility*** of its worth in achieving what it is stated to do."
Almost anything in life is ***possible***, and I made no comment whatsoever on the ***likelihood*** of it being effective or whatever, but I did add that it will almost certainly "have some effect", although again I did not suggest that any (possible) effect would be good, bad, or whatever else!
If that is as, you suggest, " expressing the view of the majority of audiophiles" then it is the first I have heard of it!
Perhaps also when you read what I said for the second time, you will also appreciate that ***nowhere*** have I even made any attempt to "defend" as you say ***anything***, so that rather patronising remark is about as appropriate here as it is for people to judge this product without even knowing much about it, or trying it!
Keld,
I trust your knowledge of audio is just a little better than it is of vehicle engines.
Having rebuilt many rally car engines for a living and seen all of the damage which pistons are subjected to, there are two reasons for pistons to become 'holed' (during operation) which is what you are referring to here.
The first, and most common, is when a valve is 'dropped' which is the result of failure of (usually) the stem collets, or occasionally the top cap, but it can sometimes happen that when a timing chain fails or a gear 'jumps a cog' under stress, the piston can collide with a valve because the valve timing gets out of synchronisation with crankshaft rotation.
The other reason is when a piston simply melts, either due to a mixture which is too lean (which reduces the cooling effect of the inlet charge) or occasionally when the ignition timing is set too far advanced (which is known as 'pinking' or 'detonation').
This second type of failure takes some time to occur as the heat builds up gradually, and neither type of problem could possibly be caused by any 'untoward' internal explosion as you suggest, and neither can it affect Wankel engines which do not have pistons anyway.
I repeat that the operation *is* the result of "a series of *controlled* explosions" as any knowledgeable engineer will be able to confirm, when a homogeneous mixture of petrol and air in the approximate ratio of 14:1 by weight, is ignited.
Regards,
Re: Eeeediots Abound.
I love it. Anyone who is not willing to try every conceivable product that any idiot can market is "anti-tweak", "inexperienced", and "less intelligent".
Do you and your $50 resistor buddies think you're the only ones who ever swapped one cap for another? Maybe I went down that road long ago?
And as far as the "empty vessel" comment - Eric, are f'in kidding me? Where were you during the discussions of core materials, choke winding capacitance, miller effect, slew rate distortion, etc, etc, etc.??
The minute any inane topic such as tube rolling, silver interconnects, or this magic-lacquer come up - the same dozen people come out of the woodwork and make proclamations. For any truly technical discussion you are nowhere to be seen. I wonder why that is?
mrfeedback said:
I love it. Anyone who is not willing to try every conceivable product that any idiot can market is "anti-tweak", "inexperienced", and "less intelligent".
Do you and your $50 resistor buddies think you're the only ones who ever swapped one cap for another? Maybe I went down that road long ago?
And as far as the "empty vessel" comment - Eric, are f'in kidding me? Where were you during the discussions of core materials, choke winding capacitance, miller effect, slew rate distortion, etc, etc, etc.??
The minute any inane topic such as tube rolling, silver interconnects, or this magic-lacquer come up - the same dozen people come out of the woodwork and make proclamations. For any truly technical discussion you are nowhere to be seen. I wonder why that is?
Re: Re: Eeeediots Abound.
If that's the kind of truly technical discussion you are talking about: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7765 I'll pass, because I can't say I love it.
Joel said:
I love it.
The minute any inane topic such as tube rolling, silver interconnects, or this magic-lacquer come up - the same dozen people come out of the woodwork and make proclamations. For any truly technical discussion you are nowhere to be seen. I wonder why that is?
If that's the kind of truly technical discussion you are talking about: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7765 I'll pass, because I can't say I love it.
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