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Old 2nd July 2007, 04:37 PM   #21
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I have found that a lot of studio speakers do have that tendancy to sound a little dark, the treble is cut, I suspect to enable long listening without fatigue.

that's not to say that still they can't sound a bit sharp, it sounds odd, but they can still be rolled down, yet have lots of perceived attack, hard to explain, but I think you can hear it.

what you are describing is a well known compression phenomenon, you compress the bass, but the treble becomes over compressed, as it doesn't act evenly over the spectrum, that's why exciters were brought in, to restore lost upper end due to over compression.

well good luck, I tried to isolate parts of sound to explain which did what, and I couldn't, I suspect with speakers, a lot of it is to do with the way the drive unit is, cone material, the way the magnetism interacts with the coil, rather similar to transformers...

but go ahead and pursue all avenues and find the sound you are after, and if you are correct, that's great.

I think you are following the road which I took, to try to actually alter the tonality, and explain what particular part of audio physics is actually responsible for 'colouring' and influencing the sound.

I coudln't do it in the end. I just concluded it was an accident and something to do with the way something was made, ie materials and interaction of parameters, possibly very low level balance of harmonic and phase spectra, couldn't do it.

I used a graphic, whilst it was indispensible, I couldn''t actually alter the actual tone itself, ie colour of say, strings, I could accentuate frequencies, but the harmonic colour was largely the same

best sound I ever had was with an active crossover and a graphic eq.

I know exactly what you mean, it may sound daft to others.

I also tried spl's enhancer, which was poor, behringer's edison to play with phase, and that was poor, too.

bbe's sonic maximiser was quite good, yet to try an aphex.

nearly got around to altering the balance of harmonics, but didn't, and never played with compression in my home rig.

As it happens, I am glad someone likes pro audio stuff, I am giving up diy tube electronics to go back to active monitors.

apart from adam, the ones on my list are the expensive m-audios, the mackies( yes I know ), and my tip if you can afford, dynaudio bm6 or similar

genelecs amps aren't powerful enough, on paper, yes, but I clipped them easily, so avoid gens.

others are klein/hummel, meyer, and emes

check out this site for monitor reviews, but you can't view the latest ones, just after 6 months I think

http://www.soundonsound.com/search?p...42&Summary=Yes

I have had mackies and dyns b4, dyns are fantastic, and strangely, and this is why I know where you are coming from, the mackies sound just like your description of the adams, a weird dark brooding kind of sound that's actually delicate, exaggerated bass, soft top, but still lots of transient attack.

now if they are as flat as they claim, there is lots more to sound than just flat frequency response, lots more.
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Old 2nd July 2007, 05:09 PM   #22
rdf is offline rdf  Canada
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Have the Marantz' electrolytic capacitors been replaced? At 30 years old they're due and may account for some of your impressions.
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Old 2nd July 2007, 05:20 PM   #23
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to answer your question, I don't think a tube preamp will actually solve it, I suggest a different pair of speakers, dynaudios!!!

I tried out all the mackies hr624, hr626, hr824, it was the last that were dark sounding, they all sounded different, the 626s were the worst, the 624s the best balanced, they all supposedly have the same flat freq. but sound startingly different.

the genelecs were the 8040s, pretty big, but the mains transformer is really tiny, for the price, inside they were really cheap.

don't go overboard in changing the electrolytic caps, just the big psu ones, I wrecked a pioneer amp doing that, and I was very careful, the tracks on the small ones are EXTREMELY fragile. it may be different with the marantz, but be EVER so careful, you could easily wreck it, and they have to be a certain voltage and go in the correct way, its not somehting if you havne't done it before, you could also get a fatal shock off one. forgive me if you are experienced, but you have to know what you are doing.

mackies big knob is the preamp I am going for, but I doubt it will colour the sound in the way you want, it will work perfectly with actives, probably passives, too, and has multiple speaker switching, riaa stage, headphone amp, the lot.

had a look at the marantz...a classic, really nice amp, I like the old 70s jap stuff, built like no other.
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Old 2nd July 2007, 05:34 PM   #24
rdf is offline rdf  Canada
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Be careful then but at the very least replace all caps in the pre-amplifier and amplifier sections. Or find someone who can. Who knows if the tone controls even centre properly anymore? Those old boxes had rafts of electro's in coupling positions too. My head hurts just looking at the number of them in a similar vintage NEC tuner alone on my bench. Also, electrolytics are one of the few passive components which have seen massive technological improvements since the Seventies driven by the computer industry and switching supplies. A pile of Panasonic FM's is as cheap an upgrade/insurance you'll find.
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Old 2nd July 2007, 08:02 PM   #25
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I heard Dynaudios. The Adams are more unforgiving and more resolute. Love them. Translation is far ahead of anything else on my list. Dyns more natural and easy, midrange less alive. Very good stuff overall, I think indeed a second best to the Adams, from my point of view.

lt cdr data,
I don't see a need of doing more then shaping the transient. It's clear to me that every process hurts the sound, as you hurt the source and not really modify the speaker. Digital filters are acceptable of coarse (XO's, EQ's), but they refer to the more "safe" side of linear distortion of speakers. That is why I still don't feel to comfortable with the TransX, but hey, if it works, I should probably not fix it.

Quote:
Have the Marantz' electrolytic capacitors been replaced? At 30 years old they're due and may account for some of your impressions.
Once I'll get some money I'll take the amp to maintenance by a professional, I do simple stuff in DIY, and sure wouldn't risk this great amplifier. But for the 3rd or 4th time, the Adams have transient issues with different amps as well.
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Old 5th July 2007, 09:48 PM   #26
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There has been some helpful advice given so far by some fellow members more knowledgeable than me (and I was going to suggest Dynaudios too! )
I believe I also know what you mean by that 'darkness' of tone too yet the highs still seem to be there. (Hate it myself.)

But anyways, the discussion did make me wonder what caps might be being used in the crossover of the Adams...
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Old 5th July 2007, 10:02 PM   #27
AdamZuf is offline AdamZuf  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by Majestic
I believe I also know what you mean by that 'darkness' of tone too yet the highs still seem to be there. (Hate it myself.)
Yup, these speakers have a dark tone but it's not because of the frequency response. For a person with Adams my theory probably makes sense to you, there's no other place to target IMO.

So try the TransX. The dark tone goes to a certain extent and leaves you with a very precise tool. I really like it. I can send you the preset if you wish.

Quote:
But anyways, the discussion did make me wonder what caps might be being used in the crossover of the Adams...
Why is that?
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Old 5th July 2007, 10:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdamZuf
Why is that?
Capacitors in the signal path 'colour' the sound quite noticeably. This seems to be because the manufacturing good caps (read: in this case: sonically neutral or transparent) is not easy. Caps with good sonics tend to be expensive and because speakers often contain them in their crossovers and said crossover normally is hidden inside the cabinet (ie not normally visible to the customer) and because there are manufacturing economics involved, it can be an area which gets 'skimped' on.

[BTW I'm not familiar with the ANF-10's myself. I have encountered what sounded like the same dark sonics phenomenon as you described with other equipment before (and yet where it still appeared to measure 'flat' across the audio band). So I'm only going on "by analogy" here ]

I've managed to alter the transparency of speakers before and perceived transient response by upgrading crossover capacitors, however if you felt this was the case then this really belongs in the "speakers forum" area. If you aren't really sure what I'm talking about, this page of xover cap reviews might help.

That said, I do also agree with what two other posters have already mentioned;
- that it could be your speaker or interconnect cables [these do surprisingly have sonic signatures and could account for your observations].
- that if the Amp hasn't been serviced in it's lifetime that it's electrolytic caps are likely due for an overhaul/replacement.
- Speaker amp impedance mismatch could account for it too (but I've played less in this area personally having exactly two tube power amps myself and only 3 different speakers at any given time.)

Adding better bypass caps in the amp's power supply has paid good sonics dividends in the past for me too, but may not be recommended if your amp is a "classic". (As well, not everyone agrees on the sonic positives of such a modification).

I hope some of the foregoing is of some help to you.
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Old 6th July 2007, 01:18 AM   #29
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Originally posted by rdf
Also, electrolytics are one of the few passive components which have seen massive technological improvements since the Seventies driven by the computer industry and switching supplies.
Just to confirm: AMEN. And bipolars are better than polarized, according to tests published by Cyril Bateman.


Majestic,
Good avatar!

But then that is true of just about all of us (or should be). I have been round the block a few times myself, and I still keep on learning.
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Old 6th July 2007, 02:38 AM   #30
ArtG is offline ArtG  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Johan Potgieter


Just to confirm: AMEN. And bipolars are better than polarized, according to tests published by Cyril Bateman.


Majestic,
Good avatar!

But then that is true of just about all of us (or should be). I have been round the block a few times myself, and I still keep on learning.

Johan,
Would you have the source of the Bateman info on electrolytics that you mention? I have have an article (old) tucked away somewhere that states that NP electrolytics are better in audio circuits than polarized. However, the author stated that the reason is that even though the total distortions may be higher through two sections than one, the signal is distorted in a more symmetrical manner, therefore, sounding more pleasant to the ear! The author also advocated adding a 50% polarizing voltage between sections to further improve results. Further research or enlightened opinions would be appreciated!
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