So if my above request is not clear, here goes again.
Instead of making a separate Phono Pre-amp, I would like to incorporate one into the SSE Tubelab design that I am building.(One big box with all of the wiring and tubes for the Tubelab SSE and the Phono Pre-Amp in one enclosure).
I have scoured this forum and the other tube forum here and I am not sure if I am using the correct search terms but I have not found anyone who has done this. Is what I want to accomplish possible? Can anyone help?
Thanks
I have attached the schematic for the Oddwatt Audio Groove,and wondered if this could be incorporated into what I want to accomplish.
Thanks!
Instead of making a separate Phono Pre-amp, I would like to incorporate one into the SSE Tubelab design that I am building.(One big box with all of the wiring and tubes for the Tubelab SSE and the Phono Pre-Amp in one enclosure).
I have scoured this forum and the other tube forum here and I am not sure if I am using the correct search terms but I have not found anyone who has done this. Is what I want to accomplish possible? Can anyone help?
Thanks
I have attached the schematic for the Oddwatt Audio Groove,and wondered if this could be incorporated into what I want to accomplish.
Thanks!
Attachments
For a phono pre-amp, I keep mine separate because it can get noisy and crowded under the hood there.
And it looks like you want a phono tube pre-amp (funny, I never thought of it that way... phono pre or phono tube amp, but never all four) and you want that built in. With the odwatt design up there you'll probably need another power transformer (smaller and lower voltage) since the 375-0-375 might require more plumbing to get the right lower voltage for the oddwatt spec'd tubes. And heating more heaters...
If you really don't mind it, go with a solid state solution for the phono amp and stuff it under there. It will have significantly less wiring, take up less space, and you can buy a small black Rekokut box and just hide it in there.
Other option is to buy a TT with a RIAA equalized phono output built in already. It makes switching sources easier and one less thing to worry about.
And it looks like you want a phono tube pre-amp (funny, I never thought of it that way... phono pre or phono tube amp, but never all four) and you want that built in. With the odwatt design up there you'll probably need another power transformer (smaller and lower voltage) since the 375-0-375 might require more plumbing to get the right lower voltage for the oddwatt spec'd tubes. And heating more heaters...
If you really don't mind it, go with a solid state solution for the phono amp and stuff it under there. It will have significantly less wiring, take up less space, and you can buy a small black Rekokut box and just hide it in there.
Other option is to buy a TT with a RIAA equalized phono output built in already. It makes switching sources easier and one less thing to worry about.
If you head over to the diyaudioprojects website, under the TUBE PROJECTS section, you can see the oddwatt phono pre-amp in post number 24. From there you can get an idea of the overall size of the oddwatt phono pre-amp.
The second schematic you posted, even with some solid state in there, you will need something to power the tube and the heaters. Still takes up space.
Maybe go backwards on this and take a look overall. How big do you want he chassis to be? How much more do you want to spend on a phono pre? How much more do you want to build? And a dozen other questions I might ask myself if faced with the same problem.
Using a solid state RIAA solution isn't all that bad. You do not lose any or gain any tube sound either way (maybe I am wrong and there are forum posts that will argue this day in and out, but with my tin ears, I can't tell).
Why? The driver stage and since this is single ended, the power output stage will determine the "tube" sound. You may not even notice the output stage as much as you mention that you will be running this amp between 2-7 watts. The driver stage is what more or less gives you the tube sound overall.
Okay say you really want that tube phono pre-amp built in with the SSE. How much more space you going to need? Get some paper and and space out all your transformers and tube accordingly (the SSE tube sockets are set into the board unless you want to run wires from the board to the sockets relocating them somewhere else). Add in some physical separation for some basic metal shielding under the hood (a small wall of sorts) as that may cut down on some errant hum. A whole lot of iron is on there. Inputs. Power. Outputs. Wires. It is getting bigger. And more complex. And heavier. Add in the cost of those tubes (minor) and the transformers (major).
If you have the space, the money, and the time -- then great. Go to it. There have been some absolutely massive tube amp builds in the photo section (one beautiful and stunning all white build with separate hand wound power and outputs comes to mind). There is a feeling of accomplishment one gets from DIY you can't get from anything else.
Just out of my own curiosity, how many tube amplifiers have you built in the past already?
The second schematic you posted, even with some solid state in there, you will need something to power the tube and the heaters. Still takes up space.
Maybe go backwards on this and take a look overall. How big do you want he chassis to be? How much more do you want to spend on a phono pre? How much more do you want to build? And a dozen other questions I might ask myself if faced with the same problem.
Using a solid state RIAA solution isn't all that bad. You do not lose any or gain any tube sound either way (maybe I am wrong and there are forum posts that will argue this day in and out, but with my tin ears, I can't tell).
Why? The driver stage and since this is single ended, the power output stage will determine the "tube" sound. You may not even notice the output stage as much as you mention that you will be running this amp between 2-7 watts. The driver stage is what more or less gives you the tube sound overall.
Okay say you really want that tube phono pre-amp built in with the SSE. How much more space you going to need? Get some paper and and space out all your transformers and tube accordingly (the SSE tube sockets are set into the board unless you want to run wires from the board to the sockets relocating them somewhere else). Add in some physical separation for some basic metal shielding under the hood (a small wall of sorts) as that may cut down on some errant hum. A whole lot of iron is on there. Inputs. Power. Outputs. Wires. It is getting bigger. And more complex. And heavier. Add in the cost of those tubes (minor) and the transformers (major).
If you have the space, the money, and the time -- then great. Go to it. There have been some absolutely massive tube amp builds in the photo section (one beautiful and stunning all white build with separate hand wound power and outputs comes to mind). There is a feeling of accomplishment one gets from DIY you can't get from anything else.
Just out of my own curiosity, how many tube amplifiers have you built in the past already?
Thanks for the reply.OTAB. this will be my first tube projrct. And yeah I could be getting in over my head with what I have proposed here. .
Thanks.HS When yall are talking about shielding what does that look like? And if I built say a bilevel amp meaning the tube amp on the bottom and the phonograph amp above it. Would that work. Like a second level?
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Thanks.HS When yall are talking about shielding what does that look like? And if I built say a bilevel amp meaning the tube amp on the bottom and the phonograph amp above it. Would that work. Like a second level?
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danconway327, I don't think that you are getting over your head. You chose possibly the best starting point when it comes to diy tube amplifiers and that is SE. Less parts, less fiddling with stuff (like biasing), an "easier" to understand and deal with topology, and nicer sounding (IMHO). Then to top it off, you got one of George's boards (which make life a hell of a lot easier than point to point wiring) which are well regarded, bulletproof, and designed boards.
Since this is your first project, maybe just try to stick to one project at a time. After all you are dealing with voltages that are quite dangerous and that is on a good day. Your biggest hurdles will be making the chassis, then wiring, then testing, re-testing, finding the faults, re-testing, and easiest is sitting back and enjoying. You can always build a separate phono pre or buy a cheap one to tide you over until research, look over the differences, and decide on a topology, and then ready to start one. But stick around -- this is a fun hobby.
And sticking my two cents into your question to HS... making a bi-level amp? You will have to be creative and deal with exhausting all the heat generated from the SSE below from the tubes and the transformer. Heat is okay; large amounts of heat, not so good.
Since this is your first project, maybe just try to stick to one project at a time. After all you are dealing with voltages that are quite dangerous and that is on a good day. Your biggest hurdles will be making the chassis, then wiring, then testing, re-testing, finding the faults, re-testing, and easiest is sitting back and enjoying. You can always build a separate phono pre or buy a cheap one to tide you over until research, look over the differences, and decide on a topology, and then ready to start one. But stick around -- this is a fun hobby.
And sticking my two cents into your question to HS... making a bi-level amp? You will have to be creative and deal with exhausting all the heat generated from the SSE below from the tubes and the transformer. Heat is okay; large amounts of heat, not so good.
Just to add, it is the components like electrolytic capacitors that don't like heat. It is possible to make something bi-level and you can get very creative with it, but keep in mind heat, size, and noise which all means getting creative and looking at what others have done when making tall multilevel amps.
Thanks for the response OTAB. What I meant by bi level is the first/bottom level is where the see Tubelab will sit and above it on the second level (2nd story) is where the phonograph preamp would sit. If that makes any sense.
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I know this is heresy coming from me, but I made the phono preamp shown on the front page of this TI data sheet. I powered it from a simple power supply using a tiny Antek toroid, 4 diodes, a cap, a 7815 regulator, a 7915 regulator and a few bypass caps. The whole thing fit inside my Technics turntable.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lme49720.pdf
Whatever phono stage you decide on, get the SSE built and working before trying to add stuff. Then you can decide where to put the preamp. My guess is that there will be too much noise and 60 Hz energy inside the SSE box. There is 300+ volts of AC from the power transformer, and 600+ volts of audio signal on the output transformer leads. The phono stage works on a few millivolts of audio signal. The two can be combined, and was done in thousands of integrated amps, but it takes a careful layout and grounding scheme to make it perfectly quiet......especially on high efficiency speakers.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lme49720.pdf
Whatever phono stage you decide on, get the SSE built and working before trying to add stuff. Then you can decide where to put the preamp. My guess is that there will be too much noise and 60 Hz energy inside the SSE box. There is 300+ volts of AC from the power transformer, and 600+ volts of audio signal on the output transformer leads. The phono stage works on a few millivolts of audio signal. The two can be combined, and was done in thousands of integrated amps, but it takes a careful layout and grounding scheme to make it perfectly quiet......especially on high efficiency speakers.
In my case I had no amp with a phono input, since I make all my own amps. I put the phono stage and its power supply inside the turntable base and wired it into the same power cord. Whenever the line voltage was applied to the turntable, the phono stage was powered. It consumed a couple of watts at most. I lived in Florida, the lightning capitol of the USA, so my entire system was on a power strip which was switched off when not in use.
I had a discrete transistor phono stage before the TI chip design. It was made on perf board and housed in an aluminum box maybe 3 X 4 inches by 2 inches thick. Turntable in on one end, line out on the other 12 volt linear wall wart for power. I misplaced it when I went to a PC based system using an EMU 1820 sound module that had its own phono stage. EMU refused to write Windows 7 drivers for the $500 pro audio sound module so I sold it and made the TI chip design.
The external box made it easy to swap cables, and may be a good option if you need to do this.
I had a discrete transistor phono stage before the TI chip design. It was made on perf board and housed in an aluminum box maybe 3 X 4 inches by 2 inches thick. Turntable in on one end, line out on the other 12 volt linear wall wart for power. I misplaced it when I went to a PC based system using an EMU 1820 sound module that had its own phono stage. EMU refused to write Windows 7 drivers for the $500 pro audio sound module so I sold it and made the TI chip design.
The external box made it easy to swap cables, and may be a good option if you need to do this.
Quick question, If I am understanding this correctly my choice of an opt will determine whether or not I can use top of the line tubes like 300B or bottom of the line 6v6gt (if your not following me , I'm guessing 300B are most expensive and highest wattage and the 6v6gt is as the other end low money low power). I am looking at purchasing 2 Edcor CXSE25-8-5K, what would my choices be for tubes and wattages if I chose them And what would my choices for tubes and wattages if I chose the Edcor GXSE10-8K? Thanks for your help.
Also I want to go with the Allied Electronics 6K7VG power transformer.
Also I want to go with the Allied Electronics 6K7VG power transformer.
What are you building, a TSE or SSE ?
The TSE is designed for tubes like 300B, 45 and 2A3.
The SSE is designed for tubes like KT88, 6L6GC, EL34
The 6V6 is a lower voltage tube and would be unsuitable for use with the Allied 6K7VG which
produces high voltage that is more appropriate for tubes like KT88, 6L6GC, etc.
The 6V6 can be used in a SSE with a lower voltage power transformer.
Both of the output transformers you mention can be used in either the TSE or SSE. The CXSE25 is much larger and
heavier and capable of producing powerful low end bass.
The GXSE10 is smaller and lighter and capable of producing good satisfying bass but not as powerful as CXSE25.
Here's info from the Tubelab website -
Tubes and Applications | Tubelab
Check the website for lots of info on the SSE design. You can also do searches in this sub-forum for more info.
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