Hey Tubelab forum!
I'm about to embark on building my SSE (just waiting on Edcor) and, though it may be jumping the gun just slightly, I'm evaluating options for the next step in my stereo evolution. Namely: speakers.
Is anyone using Fostex or Mark Audio full range speakers with their Tubelab amps? Something about some of the Pensil/FH3/Golden Ratio builds is extremely appealing to me aesthetically and it seems like they would be a fit for the SSE.
Thoughts?
I'm about to embark on building my SSE (just waiting on Edcor) and, though it may be jumping the gun just slightly, I'm evaluating options for the next step in my stereo evolution. Namely: speakers.
Is anyone using Fostex or Mark Audio full range speakers with their Tubelab amps? Something about some of the Pensil/FH3/Golden Ratio builds is extremely appealing to me aesthetically and it seems like they would be a fit for the SSE.
Thoughts?
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Zman for sure - IINM he has both Tubelab SE and PP, and several flavors of Mark Audio drivers in a range of enclosures.
Fanderson as well - Tubelab SE and EL70s I believe.
For myself, I'm running several non Tubelab SE as well as SimplePP (EL84) with a range from Alpair7 to CHBW7/ ERT26 MTM
None of the Alpair based systems would deliver "realistic concert levels" without considerable strain, but the larger Fostex driver ( FE166 / 206) and full sized BLH can certainly get close with higher single digit power levels.
Fanderson as well - Tubelab SE and EL70s I believe.
For myself, I'm running several non Tubelab SE as well as SimplePP (EL84) with a range from Alpair7 to CHBW7/ ERT26 MTM
None of the Alpair based systems would deliver "realistic concert levels" without considerable strain, but the larger Fostex driver ( FE166 / 206) and full sized BLH can certainly get close with higher single digit power levels.
Thanks for the reply, Chris! I've seen you're pretty active in the Mark Audio/Planet 10 forum's too.
I'm seriously considering the Alpair 10p as a place to start driver-wise. I'm just a little worried about sensitivity with the Alpair 7.3 (even though the huge library of designs to play with is pretty appealing). Any rumors of a 7p? Something like that might be perfect for me as far as sensitivity and enclosure flexibility (ie WAF).
I'll look into designs with the FE166-206 as well. I do think a BLH would be a tough sell on the wife though.
I'm seriously considering the Alpair 10p as a place to start driver-wise. I'm just a little worried about sensitivity with the Alpair 7.3 (even though the huge library of designs to play with is pretty appealing). Any rumors of a 7p? Something like that might be perfect for me as far as sensitivity and enclosure flexibility (ie WAF).
I'll look into designs with the FE166-206 as well. I do think a BLH would be a tough sell on the wife though.
Hi Dan-
Would that be this design?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/213420-tb-w8-1808-mltl.html
If so, god bless your significant other and/or interior decorator
I'm afraid those would be too big for my purpose (or at least until I decide to finish the basement).
Thank you for sharing though! Really nice looking driver and good to know that a SSE will push it past casual listening levels. I'm a guitarist and so I know how loud 5 watts of tube can get in a guitar amp, but I don't have a good concept of how it will translate to hifi.
Would that be this design?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/213420-tb-w8-1808-mltl.html
If so, god bless your significant other and/or interior decorator
I'm afraid those would be too big for my purpose (or at least until I decide to finish the basement). Thank you for sharing though! Really nice looking driver and good to know that a SSE will push it past casual listening levels. I'm a guitarist and so I know how loud 5 watts of tube can get in a guitar amp, but I don't have a good concept of how it will translate to hifi.
Yes that is it.
I have found that I could not use an air core inductor in the BSC as it caused a boomy quality in the bass when I run the SSE in triode strapped mode. It did not seem to happen when the amp was in ultralinear mode.
The 2.5 mh coil I first used had a resistance of 1 ohm which apparently raised the effective qts of the driver too much. I am now using a 4 mh erse iron core and a 9 ohms of resistor in the BSC and it is working well. The erse coil only has .3 ohms resistance.
The zobel has a 2.2 mf cap and an 8 ohm resistor.
MJ King's mathcad spreadsheets are really handy if you are designing a speaker from scratch.
I have found that I could not use an air core inductor in the BSC as it caused a boomy quality in the bass when I run the SSE in triode strapped mode. It did not seem to happen when the amp was in ultralinear mode.
The 2.5 mh coil I first used had a resistance of 1 ohm which apparently raised the effective qts of the driver too much. I am now using a 4 mh erse iron core and a 9 ohms of resistor in the BSC and it is working well. The erse coil only has .3 ohms resistance.
The zobel has a 2.2 mf cap and an 8 ohm resistor.
MJ King's mathcad spreadsheets are really handy if you are designing a speaker from scratch.
HI i am running a fostex 206 in a bob brines MLTL. It comes very close to shakin the house but a little more boost would be nice on those wild days. These amps play so clean that you think they are playing quiter than they are. Mark audio 12p has a higher spl and some nice box designs out there
Sodacose,
As Chrisb has already mentioned, I am running the Tubelab SSE with Mark Audio drivers, mostly nowadays with A12P in Super Pensils - a good match.
For A12P and smaller cab footprint you can take a look at the M12-A12 design by Bob Brines. Chrisb and P10 have experience with the A10P and I recall a post somewhere with Dave mentioning that A10P efficiency wise is very close to the A12.
As Chrisb has already mentioned, I am running the Tubelab SSE with Mark Audio drivers, mostly nowadays with A12P in Super Pensils - a good match.
For A12P and smaller cab footprint you can take a look at the M12-A12 design by Bob Brines. Chrisb and P10 have experience with the A10P and I recall a post somewhere with Dave mentioning that A10P efficiency wise is very close to the A12.
Several years ago I traded some equipment for two pairs of full range speakers. I got a pair of Audio Nirvana cast frame 10's and a pair of Planet 10's Enabled FE126E's. The AN's were local and the Planet 10's came from Canada, so I started building a set of EZ-10 horns with the AN's. This was during the time that Sherri's mother was terminally ill so progress was slow. It took nearly a year to build the EZ-10's. I used the EZ-10's with several amps including my SSE and TSE's. The combination worked well.
During this time I made a pair of FH3's but never installed the drivers. The EZ-10's were voted out of the living room when Sherri returned from staying with her mom. They are BIG (nearly 5 feet tall) and UGLY, but sound nice.
While Sherri was with her mom, she lost her job as the manager of the complex where we rented warehouse space, causing our rent go way up. This caused us to bring the entire contents of 3 rental storage bays into this house. What a mess. The Planet 10 drivers were lost in the mess.
I will be retiring from my 40+ year engineering career at Motorola in a year or so, and moving out of Florida. I have been tossing, giving away, and selling stuff for over a year now. I am down from over 100,000 tubes to maybe 5000. The EZ-10's are in the Honda and will be going to another forum member to live out their lives tomorrow.
I found the Planet 10 drivers safely stashed in a large ammo box in my bedroom closet this weekend, so the FH3's will be assembled in the next few weeks.
During this time I made a pair of FH3's but never installed the drivers. The EZ-10's were voted out of the living room when Sherri returned from staying with her mom. They are BIG (nearly 5 feet tall) and UGLY, but sound nice.
While Sherri was with her mom, she lost her job as the manager of the complex where we rented warehouse space, causing our rent go way up. This caused us to bring the entire contents of 3 rental storage bays into this house. What a mess. The Planet 10 drivers were lost in the mess.
I will be retiring from my 40+ year engineering career at Motorola in a year or so, and moving out of Florida. I have been tossing, giving away, and selling stuff for over a year now. I am down from over 100,000 tubes to maybe 5000. The EZ-10's are in the Honda and will be going to another forum member to live out their lives tomorrow.
I found the Planet 10 drivers safely stashed in a large ammo box in my bedroom closet this weekend, so the FH3's will be assembled in the next few weeks.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the FH3's, George! That's a great looking design (with high WAF) and the feedback I've read has been very good. If the cabinet weren't so complex, I'd have built a pair already; and I can't bring myself to spend the money on a flat pack of 'just cut wood'. I think a rather poorly constructed set is in my future at some point. The EZ-10s suffered a fate that is all too well known in our household (hence the SSE build to replace my Rotel/Adcom separates).
Zman, can you compare the efficiency of the 12p to say the 7.3 in similar designs (maybe you've heard both in pensils)? I know what it says on paper, but I'd be interested in subjective opinions, too. Much of this build is motivated by the goal of more efficient speakers (along with the good things I've heard about the single-ended and full-range combo).
Edit: You know what? That Bob Brines 12p enclosure isn't even that big...
Zman, can you compare the efficiency of the 12p to say the 7.3 in similar designs (maybe you've heard both in pensils)? I know what it says on paper, but I'd be interested in subjective opinions, too. Much of this build is motivated by the goal of more efficient speakers (along with the good things I've heard about the single-ended and full-range combo).
Edit: You know what? That Bob Brines 12p enclosure isn't even that big...
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Sodacase,
I have heard the Alp 7.3 in P10 Mar-Ken enclosures and the FH Mk3 - and the A12P in a couple of MLTL designs - so similar enclosures it would not be. The A12P is a bigger driver and has around ~6dB SPL over the Alpair 7.3 IIRC - so that would make it quite a bit more louder with the same amplification. I also recall diyAudio member Vinylkid58 has both the Alp 7 and the Alp12P - maybe he can share a few words.
I have heard the Alp 7.3 in P10 Mar-Ken enclosures and the FH Mk3 - and the A12P in a couple of MLTL designs - so similar enclosures it would not be. The A12P is a bigger driver and has around ~6dB SPL over the Alpair 7.3 IIRC - so that would make it quite a bit more louder with the same amplification. I also recall diyAudio member Vinylkid58 has both the Alp 7 and the Alp12P - maybe he can share a few words.
Not sure if I'm going to me much help, but I'll give it a shot. I don't own any single ended amps at present, although I've heard a few with different Fostex and Mark Audio based speakers, either here or over at Chrisb's house, and also up at Dave's (Planet_10).
Any of the Alpair 7 based speakers play quite nicely with lower powered tube amps, either SET, or Single Ended pentode amps running UL/Triode modes. This would be for "easy" casual listening in small/medium rooms, where loud dynamic swings are not expected. With more power on tap, A7's will play fairly loud, but don't have the "impact" in the lower mids/upper bass that the bigger drivers have. Obviously this is very subjective, as everyone has/have different listening rooms and preferences.
Alpair 12p drivers are much better suited to SET/SEP tube amps IMHO. They will play quite well with 2A3 SET for example, and will scare you with 20 watts. The only downside is enclosure size, unless you go with a MarKen/BR "stand mount" box with powered subs.
jeff
Any of the Alpair 7 based speakers play quite nicely with lower powered tube amps, either SET, or Single Ended pentode amps running UL/Triode modes. This would be for "easy" casual listening in small/medium rooms, where loud dynamic swings are not expected. With more power on tap, A7's will play fairly loud, but don't have the "impact" in the lower mids/upper bass that the bigger drivers have. Obviously this is very subjective, as everyone has/have different listening rooms and preferences.
Alpair 12p drivers are much better suited to SET/SEP tube amps IMHO. They will play quite well with 2A3 SET for example, and will scare you with 20 watts. The only downside is enclosure size, unless you go with a MarKen/BR "stand mount" box with powered subs.
jeff
In addition to the substantial difference in sensitivity between the 12P and 7.3, there's quite a difference in tonality & texture in the upper mid to top end of treble range.
I've been notoriously yapping on about my preference for the 2 versions of the Alpair 7 I've own/heard over the past several years, but as Jeff alluded they have some downsides when used with "flea-watt" SE amps - the aforementioned sensitivity, and higher bass roll off than with the 12s is full sized enclosures.
Well bless his heart, but after a lot of R & D Mark Fenlon has recently released 2 new versions of a "Goldilocks" driver - the 10.3 metal and 10P (paper). I've heard both in different enclosures, so a direct comparison's not yet been practical, but in a "larger version" of the FrugelHorn ( FHXL) the 10P just might be my new favorite. Unfortunately that enclosure doesn't quite suit the feng shui of the rooms in which my 2 separate systems reside - well for now
Anyways, at just under 90dB sensitivity they won't break windows or leases with 5-8watts, but I think they're too refined and detailed for such rough trade anyways. Of course, I'm and old fart who listens to mostly Jazz and Blues, so YMMV
I've been notoriously yapping on about my preference for the 2 versions of the Alpair 7 I've own/heard over the past several years, but as Jeff alluded they have some downsides when used with "flea-watt" SE amps - the aforementioned sensitivity, and higher bass roll off than with the 12s is full sized enclosures.
Well bless his heart, but after a lot of R & D Mark Fenlon has recently released 2 new versions of a "Goldilocks" driver - the 10.3 metal and 10P (paper). I've heard both in different enclosures, so a direct comparison's not yet been practical, but in a "larger version" of the FrugelHorn ( FHXL) the 10P just might be my new favorite. Unfortunately that enclosure doesn't quite suit the feng shui of the rooms in which my 2 separate systems reside - well for now
Anyways, at just under 90dB sensitivity they won't break windows or leases with 5-8watts, but I think they're too refined and detailed for such rough trade anyways. Of course, I'm and old fart who listens to mostly Jazz and Blues, so YMMV
Based on what you are all saying, I think I'll go with one of the larger drivers.
The 10p does indeed look very promising, and its Pensil enclosure is fairly petite to boot (it is almost exactly the same size as the bookshelf speakers on their stands that it would replace). The only thing that gives me pause is the bass.
I'd not like to run a subwoofer, and I don't listen to much bass-heavy music (mostly jazz, classic rock on vinyl), but my wife does have a penchant for modern pop (Lady Gaga, Pink, Katy Perry, etc). For her, bass is the reason one goes and builds a new set of speakers.
In your opinions, would the 10p in Pensils require a subwoofer for satisfying kick drums (upper 30's, lower 40's hz)? Would the 10.3 (88db sensitivity) provide more solid bass at the expense of sensitivity? These will be placed near the short wall of a 14' x 19' (~3.5m x ~6m) room for everyday usage.
The 10p does indeed look very promising, and its Pensil enclosure is fairly petite to boot (it is almost exactly the same size as the bookshelf speakers on their stands that it would replace). The only thing that gives me pause is the bass.
I'd not like to run a subwoofer, and I don't listen to much bass-heavy music (mostly jazz, classic rock on vinyl), but my wife does have a penchant for modern pop (Lady Gaga, Pink, Katy Perry, etc). For her, bass is the reason one goes and builds a new set of speakers.
In your opinions, would the 10p in Pensils require a subwoofer for satisfying kick drums (upper 30's, lower 40's hz)? Would the 10.3 (88db sensitivity) provide more solid bass at the expense of sensitivity? These will be placed near the short wall of a 14' x 19' (~3.5m x ~6m) room for everyday usage.
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