Does anyone have a simple break down of costs of a simple SE? Ive seen quotes for $400-500 and others lower.
Ive build several amb headphone amps in terms of experience. This will be my first full tube amp (well other then regs and rec).
Parts i have:
case
connectors
equipment
I need a parts breakdown of the rest so i can see if this project is within budget or if i find a deal i can spend more on tubes or other areas.
Ive build several amb headphone amps in terms of experience. This will be my first full tube amp (well other then regs and rec).
Parts i have:
case
connectors
equipment
I need a parts breakdown of the rest so i can see if this project is within budget or if i find a deal i can spend more on tubes or other areas.
Go to mouser and use this list to figure out the costs for the components to fill the board. At the bottom of that page you will see the part numbers for either mouser or digikey. You can find the component cost from there. Some of the items that say not stocked at mouser I have found.
Parts Lists
IXCP10M45S
120UF Capacitor
So you should be able to get most of your board items from mouser.com. You can find socket and coupling capacitors at tubesandmore.com, tubedepot.com there are many other sites out there.
Transformers is where you can spend a great deal of money. I have the big edcors along with their power transformer. I have around 200 invested in the three transformers. You can purchase some of the smaller edcor transformers and shave some money off your overall cost. $10 for a motor run capacitor. $35 for the board. Then you have to pick out tubes. Again that can be expensive or it can be cheap. It really depends on your choices. One thing you may want to factor in is shipping. Allied has a cheaper transformer that will work with this amp but when you factor in shipping it may be cheaper to purchase all of your transformers in one place.
I think I spent around 500 on my simple se.
Parts Lists
IXCP10M45S
120UF Capacitor
So you should be able to get most of your board items from mouser.com. You can find socket and coupling capacitors at tubesandmore.com, tubedepot.com there are many other sites out there.
Transformers is where you can spend a great deal of money. I have the big edcors along with their power transformer. I have around 200 invested in the three transformers. You can purchase some of the smaller edcor transformers and shave some money off your overall cost. $10 for a motor run capacitor. $35 for the board. Then you have to pick out tubes. Again that can be expensive or it can be cheap. It really depends on your choices. One thing you may want to factor in is shipping. Allied has a cheaper transformer that will work with this amp but when you factor in shipping it may be cheaper to purchase all of your transformers in one place.
I think I spent around 500 on my simple se.
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Your biggest expense will be transformers. Shipping adds up too, so if you can keep your suppliers to a minimum you'll save. I'd guess if you can find all your parts from Edcor and Allied Electronics you'd save the most in my opinion. You may have to fudge some parts though.
Agreed...unless you want to stuff the board with boutique parts, the cost for that part is fairly fixed. The wild cards that jack-up the overall cost are:
1) Output transformers - Anywhere from $14 to $400+ each. Lots of people use middle-of-the-road Hammond or Edcor here, the latter seeming to be of slightly better quality for the price. There is also Transcendar on eBay if you can find them.
2) Tubes - uses fairly common types, so you can go Chinese and spend $50 or so or go NOS and spend $100's just for one tube.
3) Coupling caps - even George recommends a better cap here. You can get Orange Drops for about $5 for the pair or spend $100+ each for PIO silver caps. Audience Auricaps are a popular choice here for something a little nicer but not completely crazy.
1) Output transformers - Anywhere from $14 to $400+ each. Lots of people use middle-of-the-road Hammond or Edcor here, the latter seeming to be of slightly better quality for the price. There is also Transcendar on eBay if you can find them.
2) Tubes - uses fairly common types, so you can go Chinese and spend $50 or so or go NOS and spend $100's just for one tube.
3) Coupling caps - even George recommends a better cap here. You can get Orange Drops for about $5 for the pair or spend $100+ each for PIO silver caps. Audience Auricaps are a popular choice here for something a little nicer but not completely crazy.
I spent:
Allied PT $55
Transendar OPT $112
Hammond case $50
Motor run caps, choke, misc parts and board (the board is so cheap I can't remember what I paid!) $125
Call it $450 with a pair of EH 6CA7s, TFK 12AT7 I had on hand and Sovtek 5Y3.
Allied PT $55
Transendar OPT $112
Hammond case $50
Motor run caps, choke, misc parts and board (the board is so cheap I can't remember what I paid!) $125
Call it $450 with a pair of EH 6CA7s, TFK 12AT7 I had on hand and Sovtek 5Y3.
Allied part 862-6224 for a 120uf 500v cap, 862-6200 for a 33uf 500v, that should cover the hard-to-find capacitors. Everything else should be easy.
I got a pair of Edcor GXSE transformers shipped for about $50.
$100 for transformers, $43 for the PCB, $50 or so for components. I'd say you might be able to do it around $200 without tubes.
I got a pair of Edcor GXSE transformers shipped for about $50.
$100 for transformers, $43 for the PCB, $50 or so for components. I'd say you might be able to do it around $200 without tubes.
Here we go. Some stuff is more expensive because of transportation costs.
ELFA 73$ (dif. components)
DIGIKEY 69$ (dif. components)
EDCOR 414$ (power transformer and OPT's)
TUBELAB 55$ (board+ transp)
TUBEAMPDOCTOR 146$ (Tubes, caps, some components)
URALTONE 76$ (choke, some components)
47$ (Potentiometer, switches, some other stuff)
70$ (wood, stainless steel plate, screws etc - the box)
TOTAL 950$
ELFA 73$ (dif. components)
DIGIKEY 69$ (dif. components)
EDCOR 414$ (power transformer and OPT's)
TUBELAB 55$ (board+ transp)
TUBEAMPDOCTOR 146$ (Tubes, caps, some components)
URALTONE 76$ (choke, some components)
47$ (Potentiometer, switches, some other stuff)
70$ (wood, stainless steel plate, screws etc - the box)
TOTAL 950$
I built mine for $300 but that was a while back, prices have gone up, so that is probably closer to $400 now. I have heard from builders in the US who have spent about $1000, but some of that was for some rather fancy and beautiful wood work.
Most of stuff came from US, cost for transportation is around 25-30%, so you are close to the truth. Of course- as I build it to replace my Sony, I did not build it on low budget bases.
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So $200 to $950 on average. Check.
Guess i need to do some more reading... i really want to make a edcor version of this and not just by a china amp for $200. This will be built after my 3886 is done (its soldered but no case work done yet).
Guess i need to do some more reading... i really want to make a edcor version of this and not just by a china amp for $200. This will be built after my 3886 is done (its soldered but no case work done yet).
You don't get your money's worth with those china jobs.
You've already got a chassis so that's a huge savings for you. You can skip the terminal blocks which will save you some $, but I don't recommend it. Only if cheapness is priority. Drop the choke and that will save a good bit too. You can leave off the tube socket for the rectifier and survive OR if you insist on a tube rectifier leave out the FREDS.
Allied doesn't carry the CCS so you're probably better off going with Digikey for parts.
So lets say you get all the heavy iron from Edcor:
XPWR035 (not tested!!!): $66
Two XSE15-8-5K: $40.02
Minimum bits from Digikey $28.47 before shipping and tax
Substitutions:
Heat sinks are out of stock so I'd suggest HS106-ND as a possible alternate.
PPC150KW-3JCT-ND for R2 (150K 3W)
PPC10KW-3JCT-ND for R14,R24 (10K 3W)
Tubes and sockets from vacuumtubes.com
6BG6GA's and adapters: $36
12AT7: $10
Sockets ??? (lets say $10)
Let say $40 for shipping?
Total Parts: About $260 with PCB and decent tubes. Add $12.12 for terminal strips (highly recommended!). You'll also need some wire to hook up the output transformers. So you're just about at $300.
That's how I'd roll on a tight budget. George's recommendations are not to be taken lightly where he's thoroughly tested.
EDIT: I forgot the rectifier tube. I'd suggest a 5AR4 and a 5U4GB in case the B+ is too high with the Edcor power transformer.
You've already got a chassis so that's a huge savings for you. You can skip the terminal blocks which will save you some $, but I don't recommend it. Only if cheapness is priority. Drop the choke and that will save a good bit too. You can leave off the tube socket for the rectifier and survive OR if you insist on a tube rectifier leave out the FREDS.
Allied doesn't carry the CCS so you're probably better off going with Digikey for parts.
So lets say you get all the heavy iron from Edcor:
XPWR035 (not tested!!!): $66
Two XSE15-8-5K: $40.02
Minimum bits from Digikey $28.47 before shipping and tax
Substitutions:
Heat sinks are out of stock so I'd suggest HS106-ND as a possible alternate.
PPC150KW-3JCT-ND for R2 (150K 3W)
PPC10KW-3JCT-ND for R14,R24 (10K 3W)
Tubes and sockets from vacuumtubes.com
6BG6GA's and adapters: $36
12AT7: $10
Sockets ??? (lets say $10)
Let say $40 for shipping?
Total Parts: About $260 with PCB and decent tubes. Add $12.12 for terminal strips (highly recommended!). You'll also need some wire to hook up the output transformers. So you're just about at $300.
That's how I'd roll on a tight budget. George's recommendations are not to be taken lightly where he's thoroughly tested.
EDIT: I forgot the rectifier tube. I'd suggest a 5AR4 and a 5U4GB in case the B+ is too high with the Edcor power transformer.
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The XPWR035 is what I have in my SSE:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubelab/140978-tubelab-simple-se-big-honkin-edcors.html
It's a perfect match with plenty of headroom if you want to run some big tubes and works great for EL34, 6L6, etc. I have also used 6BG6GAs in there from SND and they sound great...better than some of the other 6L6GCs I have.
The XPWR035 also has the exact same dimensions as the CXSE25-8-5K OPT, so they look right at home. Obviously those are more expensive than the XSE's.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubelab/140978-tubelab-simple-se-big-honkin-edcors.html
It's a perfect match with plenty of headroom if you want to run some big tubes and works great for EL34, 6L6, etc. I have also used 6BG6GAs in there from SND and they sound great...better than some of the other 6L6GCs I have.
The XPWR035 also has the exact same dimensions as the CXSE25-8-5K OPT, so they look right at home. Obviously those are more expensive than the XSE's.
I have a set of those adapters for the 6bg6gas if you want for $10 for the set, not a huge savings but it will cut $10 off your bottom line for your build.
I personally used the big edcors as well and LOVE them. For my power transformer I chose edcors xpwr059
750V(375-0-375)@175mA, 50V@50mA, 6.3V(3.15-0-3.15)@6A & 5V(2.5-0-2.5)@3A
I personally used the big edcors as well and LOVE them. For my power transformer I chose edcors xpwr059
750V(375-0-375)@175mA, 50V@50mA, 6.3V(3.15-0-3.15)@6A & 5V(2.5-0-2.5)@3A
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Now this is starting to get good after labrats post. 2 questions.
What power do i get out of the 6BG6GA's ? Should i do a switch to go from ul to triode mode?
My main speakers are going to be 4-6 ohm. SO i should just stick with the edcor single taps and shoot for 4ohm load right?
Do i want a tube rectifier? All my other tube amps just used a single selinum diode. I have never heard a tube rectifier.
What power do i get out of the 6BG6GA's ? Should i do a switch to go from ul to triode mode?
My main speakers are going to be 4-6 ohm. SO i should just stick with the edcor single taps and shoot for 4ohm load right?
Do i want a tube rectifier? All my other tube amps just used a single selinum diode. I have never heard a tube rectifier.
They are a 6L6GC in a different package. Expect 4-5W in triode, depending on your operating point.
How efficient are your speakers? You may want UL if they need the extra oomph. If you go with switchable UL, you will want switchable CFB too. UL sounds best with CFB but triode sounds better without it.
I would agree.
I dunno, do you? 🙂 I have a switch on mine to go between the tube and the FREDs and I can't tell the difference. When I put a meter on B+, it changes very slowly when I flip the switch because I have so much capacitance in the power supply. So if you are looking to save every penny you could probably live without the tube. Make *sure* you get the Fairchild Stealth diodes and not the FREDs that George still lists in the parts list. You can't get them from Digikey yet. Here is the Mouser part number:
D2,D3 - Diode - Rectifier - Stealth - 1200V, 8A, 44ns, 3.3Vf - TO-220AC - Fairchild - ISL9R8120P2 - Mouser - 512-ISL9R8120P2
I meant what do the numbers mean on the chart. I can only figure out the voltage and the watts. Im not sure what the other numbers mean, and the red orange numbers sound like you are over powering the tubes.
They are all rough approximations. Actual results depend on your actual B+, the actual drop through the OPT, the behavior of the tube, etc.
B+ voltage = your actual B+ rail
Load Z = the primary impedance of the OPT
Vp = output tube plate voltage (B+ - OPT drop)
Vk = output tube cathode voltage
Rk = cathode resistor value (R17,R27)
Ik = cathode current
Diss (idle) = output tube plate dissipation at idle (no sound)
Pwr Out = maximum power output
Dist - 2nd = second harmonic distortion
Dist 3rd = 3rd harmonic
DF = dampening factor (how well the output can cope with varying speaker impedance)
The orange "Diss" number are approaching the maximum spec for that tube type. You can see how the harmonic distortion values tend to go down as the tube current (and therefore plate dissipation) values go up. You are trading tube life for improved sound. The red values are "overloading" the tube. This is all based on the old, published specs. Some tubes can handle more without hurting the tube (plate glow) and some can't even meet those specs. It depends on which tubes you choose. Some have better reputations than others.
The point of the table is to give you a rough idea of the trade offs involved when you choose what tubes to run and what OPT primary impedance to get. You'll notice that for a given B+ and tube type, you get more output power with a 3k primary impedance than with a 5k but the trade off is more distortion and lower dampening factor. That choice would be driven more by your choice in speakers. If they are not very efficient (need more power) and but are not too difficult to drive (can live with lower dampening factor), you may prefer a 3k primary and use KT88s. If they are very efficient (95dB or higher), then you will probably get better results with a 5k primary, which lets you run EL34s.
It's all about trade-offs.
B+ voltage = your actual B+ rail
Load Z = the primary impedance of the OPT
Vp = output tube plate voltage (B+ - OPT drop)
Vk = output tube cathode voltage
Rk = cathode resistor value (R17,R27)
Ik = cathode current
Diss (idle) = output tube plate dissipation at idle (no sound)
Pwr Out = maximum power output
Dist - 2nd = second harmonic distortion
Dist 3rd = 3rd harmonic
DF = dampening factor (how well the output can cope with varying speaker impedance)
The orange "Diss" number are approaching the maximum spec for that tube type. You can see how the harmonic distortion values tend to go down as the tube current (and therefore plate dissipation) values go up. You are trading tube life for improved sound. The red values are "overloading" the tube. This is all based on the old, published specs. Some tubes can handle more without hurting the tube (plate glow) and some can't even meet those specs. It depends on which tubes you choose. Some have better reputations than others.
The point of the table is to give you a rough idea of the trade offs involved when you choose what tubes to run and what OPT primary impedance to get. You'll notice that for a given B+ and tube type, you get more output power with a 3k primary impedance than with a 5k but the trade off is more distortion and lower dampening factor. That choice would be driven more by your choice in speakers. If they are not very efficient (need more power) and but are not too difficult to drive (can live with lower dampening factor), you may prefer a 3k primary and use KT88s. If they are very efficient (95dB or higher), then you will probably get better results with a 5k primary, which lets you run EL34s.
It's all about trade-offs.
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