When the team of moderators was assigned, this was a completely lawless forum, and Jason brought on someone to bring in order... that took some tough measures and a tuff times. Now you already know that we are serious and that there are lines to stay inside.
The recent events show that not everybody is happy with a way things go around here and I cannot blame anybody.
When I wasn't a moderator and saw a first thread locked I was upset. When I've heard about Cowanrg getting the first sin bin sentence, I was sympathizing with him and I was one of the first to question censorship on this forum. When I become moderator I started to look somewhat different at those events and realised that some of them were necessary and that there is always a thin line between right and wrong. It is very easy to cross it, but it is also very easy to fix when mistake is done.
We would like to hear in this thread your suggestion on how you would like the forum to be managed and what kind of rules you would like to see. If there is enough good input we might even change few things But don't take me on that, the decision belongs to Jason.
I invite a healthy discussion of what you, the members, envision as sensible moderation.
The recent events show that not everybody is happy with a way things go around here and I cannot blame anybody.
When I wasn't a moderator and saw a first thread locked I was upset. When I've heard about Cowanrg getting the first sin bin sentence, I was sympathizing with him and I was one of the first to question censorship on this forum. When I become moderator I started to look somewhat different at those events and realised that some of them were necessary and that there is always a thin line between right and wrong. It is very easy to cross it, but it is also very easy to fix when mistake is done.We would like to hear in this thread your suggestion on how you would like the forum to be managed and what kind of rules you would like to see. If there is enough good input we might even change few things
But don't take me on that, the decision belongs to Jason.I invite a healthy discussion of what you, the members, envision as sensible moderation.
Something for a starting.
I did some thinking this March.
I put down into writing my thoughts at that time.
It could serve as something to discuss around.
Here it is:
Everything below this line is written in March!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- CENSORSHIP - what it could lead to -
In my opinion
censorship requires very great skills
of the controller.
In a website of DIYaudio:s nature, eventual moderation
is function of vital concern.
It influences the very mainstream
of activity in this place.
Selection of moderators must be made with outmost carefulness.
Some credentials:
1. Knowledge of regulations applied for websites, legalities etc.
2. Ability to see things in their right perspective.
Distinguish minor problems from major.
3. Ability to understand what is most benfitial for the inmates
in the long run. I do not say benefitial for DIYaudio,
as this forum consists of its members, the inmates.
- Without us, the inmates, DIYaudio is nothing, zero, finito! -
4. A sane temperament, be calm, not hasty - think before acting.
And not to suffer of personal neuroses getting in way of common sense.
These are some considerations, surely some more points can be added.
So selection of persons is a very important matter.
Could be done by all moderators get together for evaluation,
at a specified day every month or every second month.
There at meeting a democratical decision is made about
new moderators, and critics or EVEN TERMINATION of
individual moderators' duty is suggested.
Result is openly stated at Forum for all community members
to read. There should always be possible to get information
of the monikers that are moderators at a given time.
Withholding of information often leads to division
between those having info and the others having not.
Could even arise suspicion that something is
covered up.
And things that needs cover, are mostly things
that can not stand a view in open daylight.
/halojoy - March 22-2002
I did some thinking this March.
I put down into writing my thoughts at that time.
It could serve as something to discuss around.
Here it is:
Everything below this line is written in March!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- CENSORSHIP - what it could lead to -
In my opinion
censorship requires very great skills
of the controller.
In a website of DIYaudio:s nature, eventual moderation
is function of vital concern.
It influences the very mainstream
of activity in this place.
Selection of moderators must be made with outmost carefulness.
Some credentials:
1. Knowledge of regulations applied for websites, legalities etc.
2. Ability to see things in their right perspective.
Distinguish minor problems from major.
3. Ability to understand what is most benfitial for the inmates
in the long run. I do not say benefitial for DIYaudio,
as this forum consists of its members, the inmates.
- Without us, the inmates, DIYaudio is nothing, zero, finito! -
4. A sane temperament, be calm, not hasty - think before acting.
And not to suffer of personal neuroses getting in way of common sense.
These are some considerations, surely some more points can be added.
So selection of persons is a very important matter.
Could be done by all moderators get together for evaluation,
at a specified day every month or every second month.
There at meeting a democratical decision is made about
new moderators, and critics or EVEN TERMINATION of
individual moderators' duty is suggested.
Result is openly stated at Forum for all community members
to read. There should always be possible to get information
of the monikers that are moderators at a given time.
Withholding of information often leads to division
between those having info and the others having not.
Could even arise suspicion that something is
covered up.
And things that needs cover, are mostly things
that can not stand a view in open daylight.
/halojoy - March 22-2002 
Personally, I think that moderating a forum like this is necessary.
There are so many members from all over the world - ist is absolutely normal that problems appear that have to be solved. The tool for that is moderation.
In my opinion, the difficulties are not the decisions that are taken, but the lack in "transparency". Will say: mostly the "evil" postings and/or threads are gone - deleted, edited or whatever. So the "average" member has only the moderator's statement on what has happened. It would be a good idea to change the chronological order of the actions: first banning/sin bin or what ever, then moderator's comment on the sin bin thread and then, after some time for everybody to read, delete/edit the questionable thread.
There are so many members from all over the world - ist is absolutely normal that problems appear that have to be solved. The tool for that is moderation.
In my opinion, the difficulties are not the decisions that are taken, but the lack in "transparency". Will say: mostly the "evil" postings and/or threads are gone - deleted, edited or whatever. So the "average" member has only the moderator's statement on what has happened. It would be a good idea to change the chronological order of the actions: first banning/sin bin or what ever, then moderator's comment on the sin bin thread and then, after some time for everybody to read, delete/edit the questionable thread.
I´m against any kind of censorship. I think the best would be a forum that don´t needs any moderator. If there must be moderators because someone installs them, the best would be if they don´t do anything unless a mayority of members forces the moderators to act.
Someone in this forum has a signature, the moderators should read.
Authority comes only from knowledge, only because you have the sign "moderator" only fools will have respect . For instance everyone in the board shows respect to Mr. Pass, without he needs to be a moderator or something.
The status of beeing a moderator is artificial, and can´t work if the person behind isn´t qualified in every way.
I think we can´t give a that heavy weight to a unknown person to carry - to be a moderator.
Even a problem is the moderators get more and more - inflation of moderators. Same story as in goverment.
Everyone who is proud of carry the sign "moderator" should ask himshelf if this is a good reason that qualifies him to be one. If it is for him - he should resign. I think it´s better to trust in "natural" authoritys like NP than in artificail ones - like moderators, politicians or stars.
So far my very subjetive meanigs to this. Feel free to think different, but don´t flame me please. Till
Someone in this forum has a signature, the moderators should read.
Authority comes only from knowledge, only because you have the sign "moderator" only fools will have respect . For instance everyone in the board shows respect to Mr. Pass, without he needs to be a moderator or something.
The status of beeing a moderator is artificial, and can´t work if the person behind isn´t qualified in every way.
I think we can´t give a that heavy weight to a unknown person to carry - to be a moderator.
Even a problem is the moderators get more and more - inflation of moderators. Same story as in goverment.
Everyone who is proud of carry the sign "moderator" should ask himshelf if this is a good reason that qualifies him to be one. If it is for him - he should resign. I think it´s better to trust in "natural" authoritys like NP than in artificail ones - like moderators, politicians or stars.
So far my very subjetive meanigs to this. Feel free to think different, but don´t flame me please. Till
Moderators,
Since this is a thread about opinions, here’s mine.
I have almost no trouble accepting the rules as they are today. The rules dealing with porn or language, I do don’t matter to me one way or the other. What is sorely needed is an even-hand enforcement of the rules. This will have the big effect in improving the atmosphere on this forum.
I know that this is easier said then done. The most used moderator excuses I’ve seen for not applying fair and equal justice is that you don’t want to wait too long, or you had to be sure before you acted. The first results in emotional decisions and judgments, the latter results in situations that have now escalated out of control.
My suggestion is to implement a UNDER MODERATION post that does nothing more then let everyone know that they are being monitored. This will give you the time to make a proper decision as to whether to act or not. This UNDER MODERATION post should be very clear and insertable by the moderators exactly at the point of the considered offence without the moderator being named. No one is put on the spot until a decision is made; yet everyone knows they had better watch their P’s and Q’s. Everyone involved sees what is happening without name being brought into the mix. This, I believe, would allow most conflicts to self-extinguish before they get a chance to escalate into something stupid.
That my opinion,
Rodd Yamashita
Since this is a thread about opinions, here’s mine.
I have almost no trouble accepting the rules as they are today. The rules dealing with porn or language, I do don’t matter to me one way or the other. What is sorely needed is an even-hand enforcement of the rules. This will have the big effect in improving the atmosphere on this forum.
I know that this is easier said then done. The most used moderator excuses I’ve seen for not applying fair and equal justice is that you don’t want to wait too long, or you had to be sure before you acted. The first results in emotional decisions and judgments, the latter results in situations that have now escalated out of control.
My suggestion is to implement a UNDER MODERATION post that does nothing more then let everyone know that they are being monitored. This will give you the time to make a proper decision as to whether to act or not. This UNDER MODERATION post should be very clear and insertable by the moderators exactly at the point of the considered offence without the moderator being named. No one is put on the spot until a decision is made; yet everyone knows they had better watch their P’s and Q’s. Everyone involved sees what is happening without name being brought into the mix. This, I believe, would allow most conflicts to self-extinguish before they get a chance to escalate into something stupid.
That my opinion,
Rodd Yamashita
There are real problems cropping up that I see the moderators trying to combat.
People who truly know what they are talking about and are actually interested in helping others are not that common. When these people are insulted or attacked THEY GO AWAY. We all lose then.
All of us want to be "The Great Man" who others defer to. Ego is very powerfull. Sometimes we let our need to be "right" get in the way of listening to each other.
DIY audio has the potential to degenerate into something very ugly. The truth is that all of us are spoiled brats and would love to be the center of the universe. Luckily most of us have had this nonsense knocked out of us and realize that we can't. The rest are going to get it knocked out one way or the other or else be shown the door. The moderators role in this is to try and nicely show the limits of behavior.
It doesn't help that people keep assigning nasty motives to the actions of the moderators. I am saddened that Dice45 has been so damaged by this that he had to leave. He did much good here both as a member and as a moderator. Based on what has happened to Dice45 in the last week how many of you are willing to step into his shoes? I'm not.
Grow up or go find some other sand box to pee into.
Phil
People who truly know what they are talking about and are actually interested in helping others are not that common. When these people are insulted or attacked THEY GO AWAY. We all lose then.
All of us want to be "The Great Man" who others defer to. Ego is very powerfull. Sometimes we let our need to be "right" get in the way of listening to each other.
DIY audio has the potential to degenerate into something very ugly. The truth is that all of us are spoiled brats and would love to be the center of the universe. Luckily most of us have had this nonsense knocked out of us and realize that we can't. The rest are going to get it knocked out one way or the other or else be shown the door. The moderators role in this is to try and nicely show the limits of behavior.
It doesn't help that people keep assigning nasty motives to the actions of the moderators. I am saddened that Dice45 has been so damaged by this that he had to leave. He did much good here both as a member and as a moderator. Based on what has happened to Dice45 in the last week how many of you are willing to step into his shoes? I'm not.
Grow up or go find some other sand box to pee into.
Phil
What about a single forum on this place that is unmoderated (an off topic forum). For newsgroups at school they do this. They have the relevant newsgroups for a class, then they have a .flame newsgroup for venting and misc conversation not relative to any of the class subject matter.
If it is clearly stated as not moderated, and off topic, then those who wish to post stupid messages and complain about things can post there. This is different from Everything else, which I think that it should still be moderated. Offensive threads could be moved here without being erased. You could even allow those in the sinbin to post there as previously suggested.
Just a suggestion, and it seems to work for newsgroups. It just seems that if there is a dedicated place for this stuff, then there is less of a chance of it ending up in the on-topic forums. If the on-topic forums start to get far off topic, they offending posts of the thread could be moved there. This is done on newsgroups also.
--
Brian
If it is clearly stated as not moderated, and off topic, then those who wish to post stupid messages and complain about things can post there. This is different from Everything else, which I think that it should still be moderated. Offensive threads could be moved here without being erased. You could even allow those in the sinbin to post there as previously suggested.
Just a suggestion, and it seems to work for newsgroups. It just seems that if there is a dedicated place for this stuff, then there is less of a chance of it ending up in the on-topic forums. If the on-topic forums start to get far off topic, they offending posts of the thread could be moved there. This is done on newsgroups also.
--
Brian
Brian,
That was my suggestion to moderators team. We couldn't decide on a proper name and somehow the topic died.
This would be a perfect place to move all unrelated to audio threads, pics and all noise. If you guys come with a good name, we will make it.
My other suggestion was that someone might be able to chose it as an option and don't see posts on that board: like we choose audio, video or all forums.
That was my suggestion to moderators team. We couldn't decide on a proper name and somehow the topic died.
This would be a perfect place to move all unrelated to audio threads, pics and all noise. If you guys come with a good name, we will make it.
My other suggestion was that someone might be able to chose it as an option and don't see posts on that board: like we choose audio, video or all forums.
Am I the only one that thinks this is a very funny post for some reason ?
Concerning the topic:
I think it is to early for that. Please wait till the storm is over and correct the actions with Frank. ( especially after his apology post which seems very sincere ) Credibility of moderation has fallen to a too low level because of the recent actions. Most opinions will be very coloured now by the topic that already comes up with different heads.
First take action and repair the damage. Changes can come afterwards IMO.
Yes, probably a good idea, but it certainly should not be implemented until the current dissatisfaction with the quality of moderation here is resolved, otherwise it could simply be construed that posts discussing such are being swept under the carpet. All current discussions on this subject are clear from the title, so no one has to read them if they choose.Peter Daniel said:
The name for the off-topic forum should also not be disparaging. For example at audioasylum they have a board called Whiners Woad, and any post that post moved there is tarred with the "whine" brush when it is often not the case. Something simple and generic, like Off-Topic would be best. Discussions about the running of the forum itself should remain in the Everything Else category.
Thanks for the opportunity to have a say in this thread Peter. I have a number of specific and detailed suggestions to post shortly, in response to your original post in this thread.
Regards
follow the example
There are several on the forum whose opinion I respect more than others, and it's not for the knowledge they have but for the way they present themselves. I don't do alot of posting, but I like to read and learn. Recently the S/N has gotten pretty bad, but I'm sure it won't last long, because none of us are here to complain in the first place. I'd like to name some names and describe some of the things they contribute to this forum so we can follow their example. Might I first add that I can't think of a post where I have seen one of these people participate in heated debate. My guess is because they realize it doesn't help the forum for them to do so, and they don't benefit in any way by doing it either.
planet10 has been a moderator for a while now and does a wonderful job of explaining his personal experiences and preferences in regards to audio. More importantly though, he encourages others to share their experiences. I remember several threads where Dave was sincerely interested in learning from another member's experiences. This may not seem like much, but an attitude like this is very favorable for a moderator to have, because it puts him on the same level as an ordinary member.
Nelson is another who gives much more to this forum than he could ever hope to receive in return. He doesn't criticize people for mistakes or belittle them for making mistakes in their projects. He OFFERS his opinion, experience, advice, knowledge, nothing more. If someone should choose not to take Nelson's advice, he doesn't get upset and force his opinion on anyone. Even the One and Only doesn't have an infinite S/N either. I specifically remember him joking about drinking beer in one thread a while back. This reminds us that we are not here 100% to talk about audio, but also to have fun.
Peter Daniel is another who has contributed much to this forum. He has the same encouraging attitude that Dave does, and also has shared his numerous experiences without forcing them on anyone.
Few outnumber these guys in number of posts. We should follow their example and promote learning and fun on this site. Also, as members we should be more civil in criticizing the moderators. The moderators should also be more civil in dealing with problem members.
This may seem like guidelines for the members of this forum, but in the end, the best members are going to be the best moderators and vice versa.
I tend to ramble, so I hope you could follow that and learn from it as well.
Austin
There are several on the forum whose opinion I respect more than others, and it's not for the knowledge they have but for the way they present themselves. I don't do alot of posting, but I like to read and learn. Recently the S/N has gotten pretty bad, but I'm sure it won't last long, because none of us are here to complain in the first place. I'd like to name some names and describe some of the things they contribute to this forum so we can follow their example. Might I first add that I can't think of a post where I have seen one of these people participate in heated debate. My guess is because they realize it doesn't help the forum for them to do so, and they don't benefit in any way by doing it either.
planet10 has been a moderator for a while now and does a wonderful job of explaining his personal experiences and preferences in regards to audio. More importantly though, he encourages others to share their experiences. I remember several threads where Dave was sincerely interested in learning from another member's experiences. This may not seem like much, but an attitude like this is very favorable for a moderator to have, because it puts him on the same level as an ordinary member.
Nelson is another who gives much more to this forum than he could ever hope to receive in return. He doesn't criticize people for mistakes or belittle them for making mistakes in their projects. He OFFERS his opinion, experience, advice, knowledge, nothing more. If someone should choose not to take Nelson's advice, he doesn't get upset and force his opinion on anyone. Even the One and Only doesn't have an infinite S/N either. I specifically remember him joking about drinking beer in one thread a while back. This reminds us that we are not here 100% to talk about audio, but also to have fun.
Peter Daniel is another who has contributed much to this forum. He has the same encouraging attitude that Dave does, and also has shared his numerous experiences without forcing them on anyone.
Few outnumber these guys in number of posts. We should follow their example and promote learning and fun on this site. Also, as members we should be more civil in criticizing the moderators. The moderators should also be more civil in dealing with problem members.
This may seem like guidelines for the members of this forum, but in the end, the best members are going to be the best moderators and vice versa.
I tend to ramble, so I hope you could follow that and learn from it as well.
Austin
Am I the only one that thinks this is a very funny post for some reason ?
I think it is wonderfully funny and leaving the signature on it was pure brillance. I think if people took one hundredth as much interest in audio design as in "group therapy" on this forum we would have a dozen "Nelson Pass" types here instead of this place resembling the Jerry Spinger show. I will stand and wait for someone to throw a chair at me now.
ARRRR!
Fredenstein
I think it is wonderfully funny and leaving the signature on it was pure brillance. I think if people took one hundredth as much interest in audio design as in "group therapy" on this forum we would have a dozen "Nelson Pass" types here instead of this place resembling the Jerry Spinger show. I will stand and wait for someone to throw a chair at me now.
ARRRR!
Fredenstein
Attachments
being that my name was dropped, and i was the first punished starting this whole thing , i figured i would offer my 2 cents (msrp value of course).
i just think there should be more public involvement. sure, this forum is not owned by anyone here but jason, but without us, there WOULDNT be a forum. the street goes both ways.
for instance, in my suspension, i was accused of some funny stuff. i mean, telling people where to get porn? uh, the internet? oops. thats pathetic. i didnt TELL anyone where to get jack, i just just making a comment in sheer sarcasm.
then the other crap, "annoying someone", and "giving wrong information". maybe i DID annoy someone. well, i have been annoyed PLENTY in life as well as on this forum, but i dont go suing and punishing those people. and as far as giving the wrong information, come on people, it happens, i misunderstood and got my information wrong.
i could rant on for hours on why i was wrongly improsoned, or rather why i laughed more than i cared... but ultimately it comes down to the fact that i didnt give in.
i written apology was wanted from me to submit to the forum, apologizing for the general disarray. "?" eh? i basically said "no" (in so many words), and i was banned.
i say, the forum belongs to those who post in it. too many forums are plagued with too much garbage and more prevelant, very little traffic. both of these conditions are directly dependant on one thing. us. if we arent here, there is no forum.
so, to wrap it up, let US decide. i bet that of all the people that have been banned from this forum, none would have been banned given a popular vote.
more importantly (and harshly said, be prepared...), let go of your pacifiers, grow up, and learn how to use the ignore function. if someone bugs you, ignore them. dont make up posts about how your feelings got hurt. i dont care, you dont care, and frankly, it has nothing to do with audio. get over it. next... if something bothers you, one of two things is true. 1.) the person/thing bothering you will end up being taken care of by the majority of people complaining, 2.) you are living under a rock and easily offended. either way, the majority will make it through another day unscathed.
/
, i figured i would offer my 2 cents (msrp value of course).i just think there should be more public involvement. sure, this forum is not owned by anyone here but jason, but without us, there WOULDNT be a forum. the street goes both ways.
for instance, in my suspension, i was accused of some funny stuff. i mean, telling people where to get porn? uh, the internet? oops. thats pathetic. i didnt TELL anyone where to get jack, i just just making a comment in sheer sarcasm.
then the other crap, "annoying someone", and "giving wrong information". maybe i DID annoy someone. well, i have been annoyed PLENTY in life as well as on this forum, but i dont go suing and punishing those people. and as far as giving the wrong information, come on people, it happens, i misunderstood and got my information wrong.
i could rant on for hours on why i was wrongly improsoned, or rather why i laughed more than i cared... but ultimately it comes down to the fact that i didnt give in.
i written apology was wanted from me to submit to the forum, apologizing for the general disarray. "?" eh? i basically said "no" (in so many words), and i was banned.
i say, the forum belongs to those who post in it. too many forums are plagued with too much garbage and more prevelant, very little traffic. both of these conditions are directly dependant on one thing. us. if we arent here, there is no forum.
so, to wrap it up, let US decide. i bet that of all the people that have been banned from this forum, none would have been banned given a popular vote.
more importantly (and harshly said, be prepared...), let go of your pacifiers, grow up, and learn how to use the ignore function. if someone bugs you, ignore them. dont make up posts about how your feelings got hurt. i dont care, you dont care, and frankly, it has nothing to do with audio. get over it. next... if something bothers you, one of two things is true. 1.) the person/thing bothering you will end up being taken care of by the majority of people complaining, 2.) you are living under a rock and easily offended. either way, the majority will make it through another day unscathed.
/
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