New bike? (Must have Campag Record)

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
I fell off my nice custom-made Mercian Reynolds 653 bike last year and damaged the derailleur and the hanger. The bike was made in 1992 so 8-speed parts aren't available any more and a new groupset is needed. It has to be Campagnolo Record. The frame needs a new hanger brazing on, so that means a respray.

I'm wondering if it's really worth spending all that money on a bike this old, or whether I should consider a new one. Where's the equivalent of diyAudio that deals with bikes? Does anyone here have an opinion?
 
Work knocked me off my bikes 3 years ago but if it hadn't no question this would be an opportunity to upgrade/indulge (sounds like you're a steel fan.) Buy a new bike to take advantage of the technological advances and re-lace the rear of the damaged Mercian into a fixed gear. Two bikes for very little over the price of one. My Reynolds steel bike is over 20 years old and still one of my faves reincarnated as a fixed. Smooooth, perfect ride for relaxed city cruising.
 
Care to post a pic of the damage? Steel derailleur hangers can take a great deal of bending ( and bending back) without problems. Campagnolo is generally quite good with parts support, so you should be able to find a NOS rear mech that is compatible with the rest of your running gear. The current Record drailleur might even work.

Do not jump hastily into a new 10 speed equipped bike. These modern drivetrains, with the reduced bearing surface of their narrow cogs and chains and lousy chainlines, wear out like crazy. Not to mention having a weaker rear wheel due to the major disparity in spoke tension from dishing to accomodate all those cogs (Campy is much worse than Shimano in this respect).

Since your bike is from '92, I suspect a no-go on the fixed gear conversion due to it likely sporting vertical droupouts. Fixed gears are a hoot. I own three DIY fixed gear frames myself. But, I would not describe them as "relaxed" bikes to ride.

Max
 

Attachments

  • fix.jpg
    fix.jpg
    99.4 KB · Views: 142
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I'm also coping with 8 spd record. ;)

I have been considering selling my 8-spd brake lever/shifters. Its just difficult to track down parts, and I'm using a 7 spd. Shimano freewheel (not a cassette) on the Campy Record hubs I've had since I was 16. Shimano cog spacing is different than Campy so shifting isn't as nice as an all Campy setup.

I'm learning a lot through various online sources such as Branford Bike.
Google them- they have a LOT of info about what is compatible.(and higher prices than most-moral dillimna (sp.))

At the moment I'm using 10 spd cranks with little chainring shims from Branford to make them work with 8 spd. I bought a Record 10 spd long cage derailer on e-bay and that works VERY well with 8 spd Campy shifters. Especially on the hills around here.

If you can stand the disgrace of a long cage ;) they are floating around on e-Bay in the less than $150 range for NOS 2003.
Newer Record in short or Med. cage is well over $200.
If all you really need is the rear derailer then get a 10 spd-but you have to put 8spd jocky wheels on it- like maybe your old ones!

It also appears that 8 spd cassettes will work on 10 spd hubs, not sure though- prob needs a spacer or something.

I assume your frame has 130mm rear spacing- That works with 10 spd also. If it isn't 130 (I'm pretty sure 8 spd is ) then the bike shop can bend it to 130 with no harm while bending your derailer hanger back- why not try bending it since there is nothing to lose!

Anyway I'm tempted to just go all 10 spd since I have such a mishmash. Sure is nice though to buy a, 8 spd chain for $12 instead of $50 for a 10spd model...
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
Thaks for all the advice, chaps. I'm concerned about bending the hanger back because since being bent by the crash, the derailleur has twice been caught by the back wheel and the hanger bent even more severely each time. Naturally, the derailleur shouldn't have been caught by the back wheel, but the indexing on the gears was working properly, so I don't see that it could have been far out of alignment. The jockey wheels are quite worn, and I'm wondering if that might have contributed to the problem as occasionally the chain would ride up and rub against the derailleur cage and need a slight backpedal to clear it. That's what happened the instant before the final derailleur/rear wheel disaster. I had wondered just what chain/sprocket wear was like with the 10-speed setup and thought it might not be good. Perhaps I will have to try a 10-speed derailleur on the existing set-up.

maxro: Don't get me onto single-speed bikes! I also have a single speed bike with nice Campag track hubs (hardly any dish) and track dropouts. I broke a TA crank last year (that's why I've been riding the geared bike round town). Can I get a replacement TA Cyclotourist 177.5mm crank? Only if I order a pair from Canada (expensive). And rings are no longer readily available. I've just ordered a shorter Campag bottom bracket that I calculate should allow me to steal the chainset from the geared bike, put it on the single-speed bike, and get a decent chain line. All I then have to do is to modify the chainset and fixings to only take one ring. Shouldn't be too hard with the assistance of my lathe.

Both bikes are 653 steel, but that's because that was all that was available at the time (and it could be custom-made to fit me). What are other frame materials like?

Edit: The 102mm Campagnolo Record bottom bracket has just arrived. Is it gorgeous, or what? I think we have a result. The 102mm BB puts the cranks (measured at the pedals) approx 111mm apart, whereas the old 111mm BB puts them 120mm apart. That means the chain ring will move inwards by 4.5mm, which is just what I need. But I need a special tool to fit the BB, and I'll bet it doesn't arrive in time for the weekend. :bawling:
 

Attachments

  • bike.jpg
    bike.jpg
    83.8 KB · Views: 141
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
The gross generalization is (others feel free to disagree!)

Fat tube Aluminum: Most popular with mass manufacturers, abusively stiff for long rides. Most better bikes have carbon composite forks and/ or rear stays to add a bit of resiliance. Not often custom. Could eventually fatigue and crack

Titanium: still reasonably popular in the elite custom world. Nice ride and light and no paint required. Doesn't fatigue. A little plain looking, must be welded.

Modern Steel:
There is a whole new range of very strong steels:
Reynolds 853 and equal from True Temper and Columbus and some others. About a pound lighter than an older frame. These allow custom frames and they can be welded, fillet brazed or lugged.
Still have the steel ride. Many people are fanatical about steel being the best and most durable and the best way to get a reasonably priced custom frame. I have a non-custom 853 frame and like it a lot.

Even newer steels- a stainless from Reynolds and the S-3 from True Temper , are so strong they are even lighter, although that's not the top priority for most people.

Carbon Composite:
Very light, stiff, but resiliant vertically if designed right, and I believe most are these days. THE new high tech approach. Custom is very expensive. If you fit a stock size then reasonable.

Wouldn't mind having a carbon framed bike with Record- could get as light as 15 pounds!!!!

Most people are using carbon forks.

A full Campy gruppo without hubs but with carbon cranks is around $1500 here- prob more there! -yow!

edit: I have the tool!!
 
maxro said:
I own three DIY fixed gear frames myself. But, I would not describe them as "relaxed" bikes to ride.

Depends how you build them and where you live I suppose. Gear for recovery spinning on relatively flat terrain, retain the front brake and I found them wonderful.

Re: aluminum, no direct experience but I thought they've finally tamed it. Is that more market speak than reality? My one aluminum is an early 90's Cannondale crit and it's a jackhammer. To bribe myself back to the saddle I'm thinking buying new steel and converting the 'Dale into fixed #3.
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
OK, looks like I'll be staying with steel. Carbon would be nice, but a single crash could destroy it or cause hidden damage that could fail later and kill me. Titanium would be nice but I doubt if I could afford/justify it. And aluminium isn't even to be thought of if it's still unforgiving and prone to fatigue.

I've had two frames break under me, three handlebars and three cranks. And all this with a BMI of 22.9, although I will admit that they were all single-speed bikes and they do get a bit stressed when pulling away at traffic lights.
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
From the looks of your chainring I'm guessing that it is pretty flat where you live!

Not so here in San Francisco.

Steel is still very viable- I'd spend some pleasurable time googling custom frame shops and contacting them about a steel frame.

Dave Yates is a brit that seems interesting:

www.daveyatescycles.co.uk

He can use 853 or the new stainless 953 Reynolds tubing as soon as its actually available... but more important - he knows what good for you- and it might not be the latest trendy stuff!!

He also has a frame building course where you make your own frame at his shop! DIY bike - how appropriate!

He's in Lincolnshire is that close?

Consider Chorus. Exactly the same as Record but no titanium bits. Still has lots (too much?) carbon bits and as durable. More like $1000 for a gruppo.
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
Yes, the 54/16 gearing isn't good for hills, but it's great for skedaddling short distances on the nearly flat and is OK for a reasonably short 10% gradient.

Lincolnshire is a long way away. Now, I realise that UK distances are rather shorter than US ones, but we make up for it by having meandering roads with lots of junctions, roadworks, little old ladies, and traffic jams. I think I may grin and bear having the 653 frame repaired. I know I like it, so why change?

Yes, I know Chorus is cheaper, but Record lasts better (unless you throw it along the road). I'm still using some wheels built in 1984 with Record track hubs - and they were ridden in London (lots of pot holes).
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
yeah , Costa Rica, where my wife is from is the same way-only more so... 100 miles coast to coast and you'd swear it was 400

Speaking of steep I got talked into an event called "The Death Ride" in two days. 5000 meters of climbing and about 200k long. I'll take the sloooow approach!!Or maybe just die ......

HAving your old frame fixed and repainted might be a great solution. You can add any braze ons you need too! Then get the new gruppo.
 
Ec8010, I wasn't suggesting the fixed gear, that was rdf.

And, you can probably straighten out that hanger without a respray. I have done dozens of them. Start off with a 12" adjustable wrench to get it roughly in line, then switch to the park DAG-1 or similar, to get it spot-on. Or take it by a GOOD shop to get it done (It is amazing how many hack mechanics there are out there).

rdf, yes, the relaxednes is in the frame geometry:

The first frame I built around 700x35 tires with fender clearance. All old standard diameter lugged Columbus Brain tubing. It has a long wheelbase and I raked the forks with a tight radius at the tips. It has 55mm of rake with a 70deg headtube IIRC. How's that for relaxed? It was originally a freewheeling single speed, but has since been fixed.

The second one was an experiment in lateral triangulation, fillet brazed, with double 1/2"seat and 5/8"down tubes. Built for track use, it has a short wheelbase. I goofed when I built it, as I made the seat tube the same length as I would take on a road bike, forgetting to account for the higher bottom bracket. This resulted in zero standover clearance. Also the 7/8" round fork blades flex a lot with a front brake, so I don't use it on the road. The doubled tube experiment made for an interesting ride. It sort of "winds-up" under pedalling load. In a good way.

My third fixed frame (pictured earlier) was also built for the track, around 650c wheels and lugged, oversize Columbus tubing with a sub 36" wheelbase. I have re-commissioned this one for road use with 26x1.25 wheels and a more upright bar. Man, those little wheels lose all their momentum over rough pavement. There's something to be said for larger diameter wheels.

As for frame materials:

Aluminum is not a stiff material, it is just executed poorly. The early aluminum racing frames by Vitus were made with 1.125" seat and down tubes (same as contemporary steel bikes). These rode like wet noodles, but that did not stop them from winning races. In the early eighties (late '70s?), Gary Klein as his MIT thesis, experimented with larger diameter tubing to build aluminum frames as stiff as steel frames. Cannondale took this oversizing a step further (2" downtubes) and aluminum's "harsh" reputation was born.

The real problem with aluminum is not stiffness, but the nature of how it damps shocks. Aluminum absorbs vibration more quickly than steel (lower Q?), thus its "dead" feeling. So, although one could pick tube diameters to make an aluminum frame the same stiffness as a given steel frame, it will not feel the same. I guess we could bring a solid state vs. tubes analogy in here.

Steel has a great ride quality, but it can only be made so light. Modern steel racing bikes are really pushing the envelope in tubing wall thickness and heat treatment in order to compete with more modern materials. It has gotten rather silly that people are expecting steel frames to weigh 3lbs and last for years.

Heat treating is great if elasticity can be maintained, however, this is rarely the case. Standard Cr-Mo and good old 531 tubing have a MOE around 10%. The newer air-hardening tubesets have less than half that. I have seen a Lemond frame made of Reynolds 853, which was crashed into an SUV (the rider braced himself behind the saddle, only to tear it off of its rails with his groin). The frame sheared off near the head tube at the ends of the butts on the top and down tubes. No bending, just snapped off tubes. Now, I'm not saying a racing bike should survive a head-on collision, but that is the kind of catastrophic failure I would expect from carbon fibre.

Oh, and oversize tubing reduces the liveliness of steel a bunch. It is useful for large frames, where flex can be a problem, but has become the standard for all frames. And an oval down tube does nothing for making your frame stiffer in regards to power transfer, it simply makes for a harsher ride (and a larger surface area for the brand name to be displayed). Further, these frames are usually finished off with a carbon fork. Due to this glut of oval downtube, oversize bikes, it is getting increasingly difficult to source standard tubing for traditional steel bikes.

In theory, carbon fibre has great potential in how the fibres can be laid up to alter the ride quality. The problem is that, in reality, it usually feels like riding a 2x4. Not to mention its sketchy failure modes.

Carbon fork on modern oval downtube oversize aluminum bike=most uninspiring ride ever. Add some deep dish rims to complete the effect. The shame is that's about all that's available in road bikes these days.

Titanium is great stuff. Needs moderate oversizing to match the stiffness of steel, but its ride quality is largely the same. Not rusting or fatiguing is a plus, but its problem is cost of materials and complicated welding procedures (for which I haven't the technology).

Don't get me started on the modern trend of wide gait cranks and reduced tooth count drivetrains.

Ok, retro-grouch rant over.

Max
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
Thanks maxro. Yes, John Wayne cranks are my pet grouch too. My old TA chainset had barely 0.5mm clearance between the tip of each crank and the (track) rear stays and felt much better for it than my Campagnolo chainset that has 3-4mm clearance on 8-speed stays. Have you ever tried watching your ankles as you walk? If you can do it without falling over, you'll see that they nearly touch, yet so many bikes splay your feet...

I have straightened the hanger twice with an adjustable. I'm concerned that straightening it a third time is likely to lead to fatigue (if it hasn't already).
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
OK. The irreversible has been done. I have just removed the inner flanges from my Campag Record 1992 8-speed crankset so that it can only take a single outer ring. I've tightened it all up on the new 102mm bottom bracket and everything clears the track stays (it's supposed to be used on a 111mm BB with 130mm stays). There's a little bit of an offset to one side, but I've got a 1.5mm shim I made for another bottom bracket that I can fit to put that right. Calculation suggests that the chain line should then be perfect. I need to machine 1.2mm off the nuts that secure the ring to the crankset, and then I'll be in business.
 
Ec, rather than machining off those nice Campy chainring nuts (which would likely be a bit of a PITA), just get a set of BMX (same as track, but less pretentious and usually cheaper) chainring bolts. They sell for around $8 over here, so they shouldn't be too costly there. Oh, and the removal of the inner chainring ledge does not really prove a problem if you want to go back to a double.

Max
 
Hi,

Can anyone recommend a bicycle type for short journeys ? (in South East England)

My brother (owns a racing, mountain, and touring bicycle) has recommended a hybrid bike. The bicycle would be initially for short journeys (2 miles to the train station) but possible going futher once I get more confident.

I'm not too sure about these hybrid bicycles. http://www.rutlandcycling.co.uk/hybrid_cycles.htm

Does anyone ride a hybrid ?
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2003
You need something quite similar to a hybrid bike, but you don't need huge tyres or any off-road capability. I used to ride regularly in central London and used a single-speed bike (no gears). The advantage is that the rear wheel is much stronger (pot holes) and you're not fiddling around with gears when you should be watching out for being flattened. I still prefer a single-speed bike around town and only use the geared bike for journeys over twenty miles or so that have significant hills.

A friend of mine bought a bike recently that's effectively a commuter bike. It has a relaxed frame and upright bars but the lightweight fittings of a racing bike. She says it's great and has clipped significant time off all her journeys (she cycles about 20 miles a day).

A lot of it down to how much you can afford to spend - I'd love a Moulton, but I can't afford one.

maxro: When I looked closely, the Campag chainring nuts weren't perfect (not surprising as they were fourteen years old), so I popped them in the lathe and took 1.2mm off the length. I've been enjoying myself on the bike since and discovered that the Campag cranks are far more rigid than the TA Cyclotouriste they replaced. I'll be going past a BMX shop tomorrow, so I'll pop in and ask about BMX nuts.
 
ash_dac said:
Hi,

Can anyone recommend a bicycle type for short journeys ? (in South East England)

My brother (owns a racing, mountain, and touring bicycle) has recommended a hybrid bike. The bicycle would be initially for short journeys (2 miles to the train station) but possible going futher once I get more confident.

I'm not too sure about these hybrid bicycles. http://www.rutlandcycling.co.uk/hybrid_cycles.htm

Does anyone ride a hybrid ?

A few questions for you:
1a. Do you own a bike?

1b.If so, what type is it and what don't you like about it? If not, how long has it been since you last owned a bike?

2. How fit are you?

3. Are you a hefty fellow?

4. How old are you? Do you have any issues with back or neck pain, tennis elbow or arthritis?

5. What kind of roads will you be riding on, potholed, or smooth pavement? Any big hills?

6. How much stuff (lunch, paperwork, etc) will you take with you?

7. Will you be riding in foul weather?

8. What's your budget?

9. Is there a secure place to store a bicycle at home and at the train station?

Well, I guess that's more than a few.

But, to answer your last question, hybrids tend to be owned by those who aren't really 'into' bikes. They are the 'mini systems' of the bicycle world. If you were to own several, purpose built bikes, you might not own a hybrid. However, if you were to only own one bike, then a hybrid is probably not a bad choice. I would like to know the answers to the above questions before I recommend a bike to anyone.

Max
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.