Nice read on ./
hxtp://politics.slashdot.org/politics/04/11/08/1910250.shtml?tid=103&tid=219
Let's just assume the reports are right, and somehow someone can prove that in at least 2 key states the results were manipulated. Would it be possible at all to void the results?
See here for further links:
hxtp://politics.slashdot.org/politics/04/11/08/1910250.shtml?tid=103&tid=219
Let's just assume the reports are right, and somehow someone can prove that in at least 2 key states the results were manipulated. Would it be possible at all to void the results?
I am no constitutional scholar, but I would guess it would be posssble to void the results up until the Electoral College actually votes sometime in December or January.
Whether they actually would do so is another matter. I think it would take a lollapalooza of a revelation for it to happen.
Whether they actually would do so is another matter. I think it would take a lollapalooza of a revelation for it to happen.
SY said:
Which changed nothing.
It is a conservative shibboleth that Kennedy "stole" the election of 1960, due to Mayor Daley of Chicago's (Illinois) rather....ummm....peculiar dealings with vote counts in that city.
The facts: Daley probably DID rig the vote counts. But it made no difference as to who became President.
In 1960, Kennedy won the Electoral College, 303 votes to 219 to Richard Nixon.
Illinois had 27 Electoral votes.
If Daley had not "fixed" Illinois and it went to Richard Nixon instead, the Electoral College vote is:
Kennedy: 276
Nixon: 246
Kennedy wins anyway.
I am not condoning Daley's behavior. Just pointing out that it made no difference. Kennedy wins in 1960, Daley or no Daley.
http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/votes/1953_1957.html#1960
George Bush makes me nauseous, I can't believe they got away with "stealing" two elections in a row.
"if it smells like **** it's probably ****" the evidence that GW lost BOTH elections is overwhelmingly clear
Thank goodness he can't run again I guess.
I live in Ohio and it seemed quite clear that Kerry was going to win this state, much to my surprise.
"if it smells like **** it's probably ****" the evidence that GW lost BOTH elections is overwhelmingly clear
Thank goodness he can't run again I guess.
I live in Ohio and it seemed quite clear that Kerry was going to win this state, much to my surprise.
The damage is extreme--and already done.
If a democrat wins the election in 2008, they are very unlikely to remove all the garbage the GW Jr. pushed through. The man's practically got a rubber stamp instead of a signature, for all the special bills he has to sign every day.
Now, to have these 'quickly signed into effect' bills (can be as many as 20-40 a day!!!) shut down and removed from effect..they have to be individually reviewed.
And that can never be done as there isn't enough time in the world for that.
So all the 'garbage' that a given president may 'push through' when abusing the power of the Offal Office, with that signing capacity... usually stand, even if it disagrees completely with the 'agenda' of the incoming president. He has only enough time to sit there and sign his OWN garbage into effect. (while drinking his morning coffee).
It is my understanding that the US is STILL legally under a 'state of war', (state of emergency) as it has been continually signed and extended since Jimmy Carter did so during the original "Iran crisis" of 1979-80. Supposedly, every president since then has kept the US in a "state of emergency". This suspends democratic rights (even though they are still 'going through the motions' of democracy). But...this allows the US Oval Office or the presidency, to push through bills, plans and agendas that have --no-- reason of any kind -legally or otherwise- to be reviewed or looked at by ANYONE. This allows complete clandestine behaviour to be practiced by --each and every-- incoming president. Ie, dictatorial powers. Hidden from the public view and understanding.
Now, whether this is true or not, about the state of emergency still being in effect, as they are only allowed, by law, to exist for a given state of time, and must be extended by re-signing or extending the measure, by the president..tagging along on the original stated reasons, from back in 1980!!!.... I leave it up to you to investigate and find out.
This is my understanding of what goes on. Maybe you have better information on this particular aspect of the bizarre doings/capacities of the US presidential system. And how badly it is abused. Ie, the quiet and little known dictatorial condition that the US Oval Office exists in, right now. If they stay below the radar of the general public, there is no telling what they can get away with.......as there is ZERO accountability in that little known but incredibly alarming situation. IE, something along the lines of---CIA black ops with personal (and private!!) agendas, gone completely mad, with zero accountability. As long as it stays out of the 'general public' view.. no-one would be the wiser, or.. to put it in better terms, no-one would believe it to be true. Who would believe that their own 'democratic leaders of the free world' government would do such things? (sarcasm is deeply intended)
Very little real news is seen by the general US population, insofar as what their government is doing in global terms, or even within the country (USA) itself. The rest of the world has no agendas in terms of hiding such information or trying to 'flavor' or 'shape' the news that people see. We see the US in all of it's incredibly alarming and bizzare-psychotic behaviour, with no punches pulled. This news CAN be accessed by the US general public, if desired, but a very alarming few choose to do so, especially in a US environment where the word 'liberal' has become a dirty word, which in itself is frightening....... to say the least. Since when has caring about the life of your neighbour and his family become a bad thing?
I mean, how much garbage does the 'news' have to shovel when it is media driven like that, before you folks in the US learn to shut that garbage off and consider the REAL conditions that the US exists as?
And that's just one tiny bit of the dangerous situation that exists in the US today. The shape of this story has been played out through history many, many, many times,and the results have always been the same. Very nasty and ugly ends.
If a democrat wins the election in 2008, they are very unlikely to remove all the garbage the GW Jr. pushed through. The man's practically got a rubber stamp instead of a signature, for all the special bills he has to sign every day.
Now, to have these 'quickly signed into effect' bills (can be as many as 20-40 a day!!!) shut down and removed from effect..they have to be individually reviewed.
And that can never be done as there isn't enough time in the world for that.
So all the 'garbage' that a given president may 'push through' when abusing the power of the Offal Office, with that signing capacity... usually stand, even if it disagrees completely with the 'agenda' of the incoming president. He has only enough time to sit there and sign his OWN garbage into effect. (while drinking his morning coffee).
It is my understanding that the US is STILL legally under a 'state of war', (state of emergency) as it has been continually signed and extended since Jimmy Carter did so during the original "Iran crisis" of 1979-80. Supposedly, every president since then has kept the US in a "state of emergency". This suspends democratic rights (even though they are still 'going through the motions' of democracy). But...this allows the US Oval Office or the presidency, to push through bills, plans and agendas that have --no-- reason of any kind -legally or otherwise- to be reviewed or looked at by ANYONE. This allows complete clandestine behaviour to be practiced by --each and every-- incoming president. Ie, dictatorial powers. Hidden from the public view and understanding.
Now, whether this is true or not, about the state of emergency still being in effect, as they are only allowed, by law, to exist for a given state of time, and must be extended by re-signing or extending the measure, by the president..tagging along on the original stated reasons, from back in 1980!!!.... I leave it up to you to investigate and find out.
This is my understanding of what goes on. Maybe you have better information on this particular aspect of the bizarre doings/capacities of the US presidential system. And how badly it is abused. Ie, the quiet and little known dictatorial condition that the US Oval Office exists in, right now. If they stay below the radar of the general public, there is no telling what they can get away with.......as there is ZERO accountability in that little known but incredibly alarming situation. IE, something along the lines of---CIA black ops with personal (and private!!) agendas, gone completely mad, with zero accountability. As long as it stays out of the 'general public' view.. no-one would be the wiser, or.. to put it in better terms, no-one would believe it to be true. Who would believe that their own 'democratic leaders of the free world' government would do such things? (sarcasm is deeply intended)
Very little real news is seen by the general US population, insofar as what their government is doing in global terms, or even within the country (USA) itself. The rest of the world has no agendas in terms of hiding such information or trying to 'flavor' or 'shape' the news that people see. We see the US in all of it's incredibly alarming and bizzare-psychotic behaviour, with no punches pulled. This news CAN be accessed by the US general public, if desired, but a very alarming few choose to do so, especially in a US environment where the word 'liberal' has become a dirty word, which in itself is frightening....... to say the least. Since when has caring about the life of your neighbour and his family become a bad thing?
I mean, how much garbage does the 'news' have to shovel when it is media driven like that, before you folks in the US learn to shut that garbage off and consider the REAL conditions that the US exists as?
And that's just one tiny bit of the dangerous situation that exists in the US today. The shape of this story has been played out through history many, many, many times,and the results have always been the same. Very nasty and ugly ends.
KBK said:The damage is extreme--and already done.
If a democrat wins the election in 2008, they are very unlikely to remove all the garbage the GW Jr. pushed through. The man's practically got a rubber stamp instead of a signature, for all the special bills he has to sign every day.
Now, to have these 'quickly signed into effect' bills (can be as many as 20-40 a day!!!) shut down and removed from effect..they have to be individually reviewed.
And that can never be done as there isn't enough time in the world for that.
So all the 'garbage' that a given president may 'push through' when abusing the power of the Offal Office, with that signing capacity... usually stand, even if it disagrees completely with the 'agenda' of the incoming president. He has only enough time to sit there and sign his OWN garbage into effect. (while drinking his morning coffee).
Wow!......It's all I can think of to say.....
To think and/or beleive, as you do, in this day and age......Well I am without the words to discribe how crazy your statement(s) are.
KBK said:It is my understanding that the US is STILL legally under a 'state of war', (state of emergency) as it has been continually signed and extended since Jimmy Carter did so during the original "Iran crisis" of 1979-80.
Oh Yes!
And World War II was a fake, so were the Apollo Moon landings, Elvis's death, and that AlGore didn't invent the Internet & PB&J "Sammich'es".
Take off the tin-foil hat and step away from the X-file re-runs PLEASE!
KBK said:
Do what is right? ...I wonder if ol' GW and his Congress will do anything about the human tsunami from the south? I'm refering to those criminals who break our laws by illegally entering our country. Try to illegally enter Mexico...you would probably be shot. You certainly won't recieve any social benifits. Try to enrole your child in shcool down there. Enter the US illegally and our taxpayers will buy you medicine, social security and educate your children AND give you a welfare check. So what is becomming of the PRIVELAGE of US citizenship? I'm a citizen and I have to pay for my medicine and education. I'm still paying for my education. this means I must be paid more for my work or else live on the street and starve...even with a job. You can't have a free country that is half socialist. Someone must flip the bill. No wonder they work for nothing. I believe it to be very unfair to ALL citizens not to prosecute, i e deport all illeagals. If those same people immigrate legally, that is just fine and dandy. But return illegally, personally I think they should reopen Alcatraz like it was originally buit. When it is full, I'm sure we could find another island to take out the trash. Legal Mexican immigrants are also hurt greatly by these people who cheat. Maybe then we could better control the illegal drugs that move across that border.
Actually, the problem is with the Mexican government and GW's bestest pal, prez Fox and his crew of cronies. I think maybe the drug issue applies here in some way.
It's not like Mexico dosn't have wealth. Lots of natural resources in Mexico including lots of people willing to work hard. If that country's social and governmental policies were changed, it could no doubt be one of the richest countries in the western hemisphere instead of dumping its problems and garbage on the US and complaining about poverty and how it's someone elses fault.
I heard a good idea, I think it came from Micheal Savage. How about oil for amnesty? There is plenty of oil in Mexico. At least then "illegals" who whould then be "legals" would have to pay taxes like the rest of us do and a small reduction of fuel costs might spur the economy to handle the extra stress of providing civil services for these people. Sad to say right now there is more wealth flowing out of this country then flowing in, even with a depressed US dollar. Of course this doesn't thrill the "Euro's".
But then I am not as interested in them.
Somehow I think George wants to just give away citizenship for votes. AAAAHHHHHHH POLITICS 
Just another way the people in power can vote themselves super shares of the public purse. Don't think we can expect much difference out of either party. Welcome to democracy...well...maybe a benign oligarchy.
Oh well might as well just have a
or two and just get on with life.
Actually, the problem is with the Mexican government and GW's bestest pal, prez Fox and his crew of cronies. I think maybe the drug issue applies here in some way.
It's not like Mexico dosn't have wealth. Lots of natural resources in Mexico including lots of people willing to work hard. If that country's social and governmental policies were changed, it could no doubt be one of the richest countries in the western hemisphere instead of dumping its problems and garbage on the US and complaining about poverty and how it's someone elses fault. I heard a good idea, I think it came from Micheal Savage. How about oil for amnesty? There is plenty of oil in Mexico. At least then "illegals" who whould then be "legals" would have to pay taxes like the rest of us do and a small reduction of fuel costs might spur the economy to handle the extra stress of providing civil services for these people. Sad to say right now there is more wealth flowing out of this country then flowing in, even with a depressed US dollar. Of course this doesn't thrill the "Euro's".
But then I am not as interested in them.
Somehow I think George wants to just give away citizenship for votes. AAAAHHHHHHH POLITICS
Just another way the people in power can vote themselves super shares of the public purse. Don't think we can expect much difference out of either party. Welcome to democracy...well...maybe a benign oligarchy.
Oh well might as well just have a
or two and just get on with life.rfbrw said:
Capitalism promotes the use of cheper labor to get the job done to ultamately yeild larger profits. This is where government restrictions must come in. It is what and how these restictions are implemented that determain whether they work or not for the best interest of the country. Politicians don't always do deeds in the best insterest of the country. There is many reasons why US companies are moving out of this country and to cheaper 'slave' markets. The medical industry here is one piece of the puzzle. Companies are not required to insure in any way the 12 year old Chineese workers they employ per week for less than I would spend at a decent restraunt here. Why there is not restrictions on US companies's products sold here that are made by foriegn 'slave' markets I can only conlclude that more money flows, Uncle Sam gets a bigger piece of pie. This in turn allows politicians to spend more money and get more votes. Hince the current budget deficet. I have a major issue with the current TRADE deficet not just to China, but to many other countries that can't afford to buy US products. The solution ultamately rests in the hands of the American voting citizens and that, frankly, is scarry because most of them are just sheeple who don't have a clue and are too lazy to think for themselves.
There has always been and always will be drug use in mankind's societies. It is how that society deals with the problem that is important issue here. Truthful education is probably the best way because you can nip the demand in the butt. Criminalization obviously doesn't solve the problem. You have to understand that here in the US, many prisons are run by private industries backed by the government. To criminalize drug use and proliferation is profit for both these companies, lobbiests, and ultamately the government and generates much revenue...taxable revenue. The risk then makes the drugs more valuable and that promotes proliforation and of course fuels the demand that you speak of at the terrible exspense of the population. When 7th graders are selling extacy and LSD in middle schools, we have a big probem. What's wrong with it, their parents do the same thing. Monkey see, monkey do.
In this environment there will always be those folks who will risk all to gain alot. It is my belief that if it is really the government's goal to win the "Drug War", it could be done. The lack of revenue would hit people paying people in power right in the kisser. The black market must be controled too or it will get out of hand and distroy the leagal market directly or indirectly. This is where it gets twisted up real good. There is more to the issue than meets the eye. Black, White, Cut & Dry.....I don't think so.
I don't think you are being fair to the goverment. It is simply doing the best for its shareholders. Most western goverments have pretty much concluded whatever is good for 'big business' is all that matters, irrespective of the consequences for the population at large.
As for drugs we are all in the same boat on that one without a paddle between us.
As for drugs we are all in the same boat on that one without a paddle between us.
True, but as long as we are cleaning up the worlds messes, we might as well get "Paid" for it!
There already >are< restrictions & laws in place. The trouble is that in todays "PC" type of world "Illegal immigrants" have become "Undocumented Immigrants" (or whatever the Phrase of the day is!) Laws/policies are being implemented to help them get welfare, drivers licenses, medical aid, day care, and other things that, We tax payers front the bill for. People (Legal Citizens) are being harassed by them on/in most of our border states and employers are not prosecuted for hiring them.
Hey!, don't get me wrong, I'm all for LEGAL immigration!
I'm a 3rd generation son of immigrants myself. But what is going on today is just plain WRONG
Just as there is/has been/always will be Crime/criminals/mis-wired carbon units.
The trouble is with those who want to bend the rule of civilized society to try to "Fit everyone in!".
They would like to make believe that you can always find a way to make every single person "Part of Our civilized society", no matter the cost(in lives or $$).
The fact of the matter is that in ANY society there will always be a certain number that are just "Miss-wired" or "Defective" or whatever you want to call the insane, child molesters, psychotic killers, Etc. Nothing is going to change this.
Trying to re-integrate these "People" back into society is a crime almost as bad as those committed by these monsters themselves.
This has been shown throughout history, again and again.
So why do certain groups try again, and again?
And also........
Criminals, by definition, don't follow/break laws, it's why they are criminals!
Therefore, more laws, will not stop criminals from committing crimes!
One (We) can not legislate morality. You either have morals or You do not. A Law does not magically provide them for you.
As far as government being for "Big Business" regardless of what the people want/need......
Our government is elected to pursue what is good for our country/people. Unfortunately, government is composed of people. People are not perfect and We >ALL< have faults. The best that we can try to do, is to get the best people(we can) in place and working in a government that has the best chance to do what needs to be done.
Monarchy Won't/Didn't work.
Communism Won't/Didn't work.
Socialism Won't/isn't/Didn't work(ing).
Democracy/Democratic Republic Working well so far!
Will it be perfect? No Way!
Is it the best one to be tried yet? You better believe it!
Tall Shadow
rfbrw said:
It seems more and more that the current Bush administration is selling more and more shares (of jobs [and families] ) of the "holders" to China, Mexico and now with new trade sh__ to "Central America", why not just sell us out to the whole world? If only someone whould just come out and explain why these policies are being implemented and how it is to benefit the American Citizens? Who are the employers of these lawmakers????
I can think of a few "law makers" WE should outsource maybe to San Salvador???
Tall Shadow said:
True, but as long as we are cleaning up the worlds messes, we might as well get "Paid" for it!
There already >are< restrictions & laws in place. The trouble is that in todays "PC" type of world "Illegal immigrants" have become "Undocumented Immigrants" (or whatever the Phrase of the day is!) Laws/policies are being implemented to help them get welfare, drivers licenses, medical aid, day care, and other things that, We tax payers front the bill for. People (Legal Citizens) are being harassed by them on/in most of our border states and employers are not prosecuted for hiring them.
Hey!, don't get me wrong, I'm all for LEGAL immigration!
I'm a 3rd generation son of immigrants myself. But what is going on today is just plain WRONG
Just as there is/has been/always will be Crime/criminals/mis-wired carbon units.
The trouble is with those who want to bend the rule of civilized society to try to "Fit everyone in!".
They would like to make believe that you can always find a way to make every single person "Part of Our civilized society", no matter the cost(in lives or $$).
The fact of the matter is that in ANY society there will always be a certain number that are just "Miss-wired" or "Defective" or whatever you want to call the insane, child molesters, psychotic killers, Etc. Nothing is going to change this.
Trying to re-integrate these "People" back into society is a crime almost as bad as those committed by these monsters themselves.
This has been shown throughout history, again and again.
So why do certain groups try again, and again?
And also........
Criminals, by definition, don't follow/break laws, it's why they are criminals!
Therefore, more laws, will not stop criminals from committing crimes!
One (We) can not legislate morality. You either have morals or You do not. A Law does not magically provide them for you.
As far as government being for "Big Business" regardless of what the people want/need......
Our government is elected to pursue what is good for our country/people. Unfortunately, government is composed of people. People are not perfect and We >ALL< have faults. The best that we can try to do, is to get the best people(we can) in place and working in a government that has the best chance to do what needs to be done.
Monarchy Won't/Didn't work.
Communism Won't/Didn't work.
Socialism Won't/isn't/Didn't work(ing).
Democracy/Democratic Republic Working well so far!
Will it be perfect? No Way!
Is it the best one to be tried yet? You better believe it!
Tall Shadow
Explain to me what is it..... CAPTHA in respect to NAPTHA and how this sellout trade agreement is going to benefit me as a citizen and those people who work in industry, who build this nation, and must raise families?.... American families. How are we to defend ourselves when we can no longer mass produce a single product without foreign cooperation? Trust? HHMmmmm US opinion isn't too popular these days.... I personally don't trust the intentions of but a very few countries anymore. I doubt if I am alone either, and thats just too bad.
cunningham said:
It seems more and more that the current Bush administration is selling more and more shares (of jobs [and families] ) of the "holders" to China, Mexico and now with new trade sh__ to "Central America", why not just sell us out to the whole world? If only someone whould just come out and explain why these policies are being implemented and how it is to benefit the American Citizens? Who are the employers of these lawmakers????
I can think of a few "law makers" WE should outsource maybe to San Salvador???
You must not confuse the wealth of the state with the wealth of those who run the state. The state can be stone broke or or in hock to foreign creditors but so long as the government does not do anything stupid like seek to redress the balance between the employer and the employed by limiting the ability of the employer to control costs through outsourcing or skilled/unskilled migration, the wealth of those who run the state can be increased by channelling said credit into their pockets. The citizens, by and large, don't get a look in. They're just there to be consumers.
Its capitalism Jim, but not as Adam Smith knows it. Governments may have checks and balances but this globalized version of capitalism doesn't.
I've cut out the last couple of posts due to some racist language characterizing Arabs. This sort of thing is not acceptable here. We will be discussing further action.rfbrw said:
Obviously the "Wink" at the end of My original statement was missed.
But, on the other hand, If you don't like how/what we are doing to "Clean up" the world.....You are welcome to get off your couch and try your own hand(s)+Effort+Money at making it better.
I think that your view(s) may well change, with your new "Perch on top of the world". If you are willing to "Put your money+effort+Hand(s) where your mouth is!"
That is, given your new enthusiasm on the subject. >
<Tall Shadow
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