As we have seen lately, a number of very competent members have chosen to retire or just slowly lost interest in this forum.
To avoid this (and the usual piefight when a topic like this is brought up), I would like to point out some of the reasons why people quit on us and from that hopefully create a PEACEFULL thread where we can try to sort out a solution or at least put a little spotlight on the actual problem.
When Fred, Halojoy and Jung left we focused on the particular event that as we say in danish "was the drop that made the glass "overfull"". Little attention have been pointed in direction of the incidents that were "everyday incidents".
One of the everyday incidents that allready have had a little attention is the commercial ripoff issue. I guess we can all agree that such simply must stop !
What I guess many of us dosnt notice is that it is no fun, nor interesting when an experienced EE is flamed by people with little or limited knowledge about electronics for simply trying to help people out. Ignorance and lack of good manners (generally a bad combo) seems to actually be the biggest problem in this matter.
At some point anybody with something to offer will have had it with that attitude.....and to quote TILL...(with a little language correction) there will be just people with little to offer left.
Magura
To avoid this (and the usual piefight when a topic like this is brought up), I would like to point out some of the reasons why people quit on us and from that hopefully create a PEACEFULL thread where we can try to sort out a solution or at least put a little spotlight on the actual problem.
When Fred, Halojoy and Jung left we focused on the particular event that as we say in danish "was the drop that made the glass "overfull"". Little attention have been pointed in direction of the incidents that were "everyday incidents".
One of the everyday incidents that allready have had a little attention is the commercial ripoff issue. I guess we can all agree that such simply must stop !
What I guess many of us dosnt notice is that it is no fun, nor interesting when an experienced EE is flamed by people with little or limited knowledge about electronics for simply trying to help people out. Ignorance and lack of good manners (generally a bad combo) seems to actually be the biggest problem in this matter.
At some point anybody with something to offer will have had it with that attitude.....and to quote TILL...(with a little language correction) there will be just people with little to offer left.
Magura
feeling is mutual
It goes both ways. Actually it seems more so that the EE themselves at each other's thoat than EEs with lesser knowledgable members. Would one has to be lay on the ground get stumped on, abused, humiliated for any kind of help received here in the forum?
Yes may be or may be diyforum became an elite EE fight club. Non EE members are not allowed to post and can only watch the action
IMO the only solution is manner but difficult with different personalities, so the other choice will be more heavy handed moderating and censors, stop any thread on its track with the slights hint of personal attack, abusive languages etc etc
Regards,
Chris
But the sega ain't the same without hero, bloodshed, glory, departure, Reunion...
Magura said:......................
What I guess many of us dosnt notice is that it is no fun, nor interesting when an experienced EE is flamed by people with little or limited knowledge about electronics for simply trying to help people out. Ignorance and lack of good manners (generally a bad combo) seems to actually be the biggest problem in this matter.
Magura
It goes both ways. Actually it seems more so that the EE themselves at each other's thoat than EEs with lesser knowledgable members. Would one has to be lay on the ground get stumped on, abused, humiliated for any kind of help received here in the forum?
Magura said:......................
At some point anybody with something to offer will have had it with that attitude.....and to quote TILL...(with a little language correction) there will be just people with little to offer left.
Magura
Yes may be or may be diyforum became an elite EE fight club. Non EE members are not allowed to post and can only watch the action
IMO the only solution is manner but difficult with different personalities, so the other choice will be more heavy handed moderating and censors, stop any thread on its track with the slights hint of personal attack, abusive languages etc etc
Regards,
Chris
But the sega ain't the same without hero, bloodshed, glory, departure, Reunion...
While it is a loss to the forum when the experienced people leave,
I still think we have a surprising amoung of experienced
professionals still around, considering that this is primarily
a forum for amateurs. I think it is too early to spot any trend
of these people leaving, so let's hope that is not the case.
A great applaud to those people like Nelson Pass, Jonathan
Carr, John Curl, Charles Hanssen, Jocko and many many
others who are still here and still have patience with us
amateurs.
I still think we have a surprising amoung of experienced
professionals still around, considering that this is primarily
a forum for amateurs. I think it is too early to spot any trend
of these people leaving, so let's hope that is not the case.
A great applaud to those people like Nelson Pass, Jonathan
Carr, John Curl, Charles Hanssen, Jocko and many many
others who are still here and still have patience with us
amateurs.
Every six months the world is ending because "the forum is going downhill" or "person X left." A small subset of the forum ties itself in knots trying to "fix" the problem, and in the end things pretty much continue as before, and DIY continues to be a great place with a lot of valuable knowledge.
Folks, I don't think anything is broken. If anything, people should relax, and worry a little less. All of the name calling over methodologies and commercial/DIY and moderation is not DIY or audio. As long as we aren't actively stepping on each other's toes I think we are all big enough people to ignore the minor slights and differences of opinion that are sure to surface.
To paraphrase Roosevelt, I think the only thing we have to worry about it people worrying about the state of DIY!
Next project.
Folks, I don't think anything is broken. If anything, people should relax, and worry a little less. All of the name calling over methodologies and commercial/DIY and moderation is not DIY or audio. As long as we aren't actively stepping on each other's toes I think we are all big enough people to ignore the minor slights and differences of opinion that are sure to surface.
To paraphrase Roosevelt, I think the only thing we have to worry about it people worrying about the state of DIY!
Next project.
The problem here lies in the moderation team...........or lack of. If this was a democracy it would be time for a vote.
The forum is a shell of it's former self with experienced members leaving and certain individuals allowed to do as they please. I won't be surprised to see more people leave soon.
........meanwhile the moderation team sits back and pretends that everything is ok. They like to give us the impression they are like janitors but infact they are the root of the problem in more ways than one.
Regards,
Jam
The forum is a shell of it's former self with experienced members leaving and certain individuals allowed to do as they please. I won't be surprised to see more people leave soon.
........meanwhile the moderation team sits back and pretends that everything is ok. They like to give us the impression they are like janitors but infact they are the root of the problem in more ways than one.
Regards,
Jam
jam said:
Valuable members have left due to their perception that there was not enough moderation. Valuable members have left *because* of moderation. You will never make everyone happy so my preference is to err on the side of less moderation and trust people to interact like adults. If they really aren't inclined to, moderation isn't going to force them to do so anyway.
Let,s address commerce first....
P and P are just as shameless on this forum........
http://ampchipdiy.com/phpBB2/search.php?search_author=Peter+Daniel
http://ampchipdiy.com/phpBB2/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=77&sid=89436d2865b03fa8694dcc2ffe2350cb
This great! It looks like thess guy sees shameless flogging already on the way. There a bunch
of links to DIYaudio.com I guess group buys are not just for the DIYaudio guys but for whoever they can drag into from other forums. Looks like shameless comerce to me.
http://ampchipdiy.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=302
Members what do you think now!
P and P are just as shameless on this forum........
http://ampchipdiy.com/phpBB2/search.php?search_author=Peter+Daniel
http://ampchipdiy.com/phpBB2/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=77&sid=89436d2865b03fa8694dcc2ffe2350cb
This great! It looks like thess guy sees shameless flogging already on the way. There a bunch
of links to DIYaudio.com I guess group buys are not just for the DIYaudio guys but for whoever they can drag into from other forums. Looks like shameless comerce to me.
http://ampchipdiy.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=302
Members what do you think now!
Magura, i like your translation to social correct english.
"How to make the competent poeple stay on this forum??"
I had a flood of emails with different people on this topic last days. I think the answer goes in direction
i) no commercialism on the board
ii) no double standart moderation
this would need some kind of control for the moderators action. They moderating themself does obviosly not work, we need some kind of "feedback" regulation from members to moderators. Members need to have the power to let moderators "feel" in some way if they act right or wrong.
"How to make the competent poeple stay on this forum??"
I had a flood of emails with different people on this topic last days. I think the answer goes in direction
i) no commercialism on the board
ii) no double standart moderation
this would need some kind of control for the moderators action. They moderating themself does obviosly not work, we need some kind of "feedback" regulation from members to moderators. Members need to have the power to let moderators "feel" in some way if they act right or wrong.
hi all,
i have only been on this forum a couple of weeks, but i do notice that there can be a fair bit of negativity from some members towards other members, and in these posts it is just a whole lot of closed minded people who aren't open to anyone else's opinions. they aren't able to conduct a 'discussion' and as soon as someone poses a challange to what they have said, they try and knock that person down. from what i observe, it tends to be people who try and pretend they know more than what they do, and will try and avoid having what they said challanged because they can't back themselves up. i notice a lot of imaturity in this forum too, which as a 17 year old, it seems strange having people atleast twice my age carry on like a pack of three year olds. i mean really, we come to this forum to talk about audio... and obviously in a forum with topics of a subjective nature, there will be different opinions, and until proven otherwise all opinions are just as valid, therefore, everyone should open their minds a little and think about what others say. and when someone challanges a point you make, don't resort to calling them a far-kin see-you-en-tea, but justify your opinion, or admit that it was just an opinion or mistake, and that you have learned from what they have said. we're hear to learn and inform, not to act imature... atleast, that's why i'm here... i go out with my firends to be imature and get drunk and pick fights and whatever, but when i come here, i come to discuss audio. discuss doesn't mean simply listening... of course we should question people about something we don't agree with, but in a civilised maner. maybe more like "could you please explain this, as in my opinion...." instead of "hey you F'n'C, thats wrong. if you weren't such a F'n idiot you'd see it's like this ya c!@#..."
see, big diference hey?
another thing i've observed is there tends to be some forums on this site that attract a lot more negative responses than others, and the main forum i participate in seems to attract pretty minimal amount of negativity when compared with others. it seems maybe some areas of audio attract people of different personalities maybe because these areas might have a slightly different culture surounding them or whatever reason... but, but for whatever reason it is, we are bound to find people on this forum who's minds are closed and their ability to think rationaly is clouded by their own pretentions. if these people opened their minds and conducted themselves in a rational manner, this would be a much happier place.
about moderating moderators, maybe we should set up a system where people can lodge a complaint about a moderator if they find something the moderator says or does objectionable, and once that moderator gets a certain number of strikes, the other moderators will review the complaints lodged and decide what to do with this moderator... and, any member found falsely reporting should also be dealt with... this keeps it fair or otherwise people with something personal against a moderator might do this as revenge or something similar. i think we also need to have more moderators, of a wider range of ages, genders (are there many if any females on this forum???), and differing opinions. this would create more ballance.
just remember fellas, keep it real.... keep it audio
i have only been on this forum a couple of weeks, but i do notice that there can be a fair bit of negativity from some members towards other members, and in these posts it is just a whole lot of closed minded people who aren't open to anyone else's opinions. they aren't able to conduct a 'discussion' and as soon as someone poses a challange to what they have said, they try and knock that person down. from what i observe, it tends to be people who try and pretend they know more than what they do, and will try and avoid having what they said challanged because they can't back themselves up. i notice a lot of imaturity in this forum too, which as a 17 year old, it seems strange having people atleast twice my age carry on like a pack of three year olds. i mean really, we come to this forum to talk about audio... and obviously in a forum with topics of a subjective nature, there will be different opinions, and until proven otherwise all opinions are just as valid, therefore, everyone should open their minds a little and think about what others say. and when someone challanges a point you make, don't resort to calling them a far-kin see-you-en-tea, but justify your opinion, or admit that it was just an opinion or mistake, and that you have learned from what they have said. we're hear to learn and inform, not to act imature... atleast, that's why i'm here... i go out with my firends to be imature and get drunk and pick fights and whatever, but when i come here, i come to discuss audio. discuss doesn't mean simply listening... of course we should question people about something we don't agree with, but in a civilised maner. maybe more like "could you please explain this, as in my opinion...." instead of "hey you F'n'C, thats wrong. if you weren't such a F'n idiot you'd see it's like this ya c!@#..."
see, big diference hey?
another thing i've observed is there tends to be some forums on this site that attract a lot more negative responses than others, and the main forum i participate in seems to attract pretty minimal amount of negativity when compared with others. it seems maybe some areas of audio attract people of different personalities maybe because these areas might have a slightly different culture surounding them or whatever reason... but, but for whatever reason it is, we are bound to find people on this forum who's minds are closed and their ability to think rationaly is clouded by their own pretentions. if these people opened their minds and conducted themselves in a rational manner, this would be a much happier place.
about moderating moderators, maybe we should set up a system where people can lodge a complaint about a moderator if they find something the moderator says or does objectionable, and once that moderator gets a certain number of strikes, the other moderators will review the complaints lodged and decide what to do with this moderator... and, any member found falsely reporting should also be dealt with... this keeps it fair or otherwise people with something personal against a moderator might do this as revenge or something similar. i think we also need to have more moderators, of a wider range of ages, genders (are there many if any females on this forum???), and differing opinions. this would create more ballance.
just remember fellas, keep it real.... keep it audio
Guys, I am on this forum just slightly over two years. Thinking back, I can't see any major difference with two years ago. There were some periods where I was really bored and didn't visit for days, because there was a lot of subjective yes/no talking going on. Of course, for others that may have been the exciting periods.
I have seen Walt Jung come and, sadly, go again. I have seen Jonathan Carr (or maybe it was John Curl) come and becoming one of the important contributors (both are, I'm just not sure which of them joined during my time). You lose a few, you gain a few. Personally, I find the average discussion level at a higher intellectual level than two years ago.
There were several flare-ups with the moderators accused of a lot of bad stuff, but I have seen more abuse-loaded threads in the first year I was here then in the last year.
So, from my perspective, we're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. And, I have no doubt that moderation works, and works pretty good considered this is basically an anarchy kept together by a common hobby and a few very basic human relation principles (and the fact that you cannot physically shoot at someone ).
Can anyone still remember the reason for this thread (don't cheat, don't look up the earlier posts). So, let's get back to audio, shall we?
Jan Didden
I have seen Walt Jung come and, sadly, go again. I have seen Jonathan Carr (or maybe it was John Curl) come and becoming one of the important contributors (both are, I'm just not sure which of them joined during my time). You lose a few, you gain a few. Personally, I find the average discussion level at a higher intellectual level than two years ago.
There were several flare-ups with the moderators accused of a lot of bad stuff, but I have seen more abuse-loaded threads in the first year I was here then in the last year.
So, from my perspective, we're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. And, I have no doubt that moderation works, and works pretty good considered this is basically an anarchy kept together by a common hobby and a few very basic human relation principles (and the fact that you cannot physically shoot at someone
).Can anyone still remember the reason for this thread (don't cheat, don't look up the earlier posts). So, let's get back to audio, shall we?
Jan Didden
Agree and agree, but there are concerns about commercial hard sell here, the forum is being exploited, and it seems moderators are fortgetting the forum rules, actually I have never read it me self. I think back on topic here in this thread is will by riding of shameless comerce make the competent people stay on this forum? I think the question should apply to all members not just competent members. How do we classify competentancy anyway?
Regards,
Chris
We should not brush the dirt under the carpet I think.
Regards,
Chris
We should not brush the dirt under the carpet I think.
I agree with you Chris. I think there may very well be *something* that could be improved, whether it's commercialism or uniformity among the moderators or whatever.
BUT the biggest problem now is that these threads discussing it bring out all the crazies. Good grief, can't some of you join a gym, pound the heavy bag for a while or something?
BUT the biggest problem now is that these threads discussing it bring out all the crazies. Good grief, can't some of you join a gym, pound the heavy bag for a while or something?
Those "experienced" members have a lot to offer, and most of them offer it in a very altruistic way. I've learned many things from them, mainly about generosity. I take the opportunity to thank them again.
But what I see, is too much dependency of them. Everybody wants a Pass, a Curl, a Thorsten, me, or a Jung for every question. And I have to say that we are becoming a bit lazy, and forgetting what DIY is. Diy means: "let the other people do it for yourself", or make a group so you don't have to build your chassis
We all have started asking "which one is better?" but have developed our skills.
Hey, but that's just my point of view
But what I see, is too much dependency of them. Everybody wants a Pass, a Curl, a Thorsten, me, or a Jung for every question. And I have to say that we are becoming a bit lazy, and forgetting what DIY is. Diy means: "let the other people do it for yourself", or make a group so you don't have to build your chassis
We all have started asking "which one is better?" but have developed our skills.
Hey, but that's just my point of view
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