There´s no question that a forum with too much commerce is not really easy and fun to read.
I got piXXed off with it more than once but learned to ignore and filter the right stuff.
As long as the forum isn´t overwhelmed with it I wouldn´t mind but that is a question of taste how pure one wants such a forum.
I certainly find enough here to read that I can cope with ignoring some group-buys.
Being surrounded by commerce in the real world it is also a question if it´s doable at all to create an oasis without any commerce and how much effort has to be done to reach that.
Do you think you can do it better?
I have to admit that I appreciate the effort BrianGT has done in the group buy. For 80$ I got parts shipped in one week that were properly packed and which I couldn´t get cheaper here in germany. It´s hard for me to call that commerce. It´s a DIY-bargain with good service.
That said there are indeed bargains which nobody can deny and there are other things that should rather go to Ebay.
Are you able to ignore such things?
How much can you cope with?
The fact that a few individuals left is in my eyes their problem.
I don´t think it´s the forum that changed so heavily. (Well, yes there are more group-buys coming up)
Do you move into the rainforest because you have commercials from Walmart in your letterbox?
One thing I can´t get into my head was Fred´s argue about the whole Zobel-thing.
Why can´t he just let other people do what is maybe unprofessional, not suitable, against all physics?
There are newbies and audio-voodoo´s on the forum.
Let them do what they wanna do, there are worse things happening that are not right.
So what´s the reason for them going?
Lack of tolerance? Not able to ignore BS? A bit stubborn?
Don´t forget : We´re all fanatics! which should be enough to keep us all together?
Raka said:But what I see, is too much dependency of them. Everybody wants a Pass, a Curl, a Thorsten, me, or a Jung for every question. And I have to say that we are becoming a bit lazy, and forgetting what DIY is. Diy means: "let the other people do it for yourself", or make a group so you don't have to build your chassis
We all have started asking "which one is better?" but have developed our skills.
Hey, but that's just my point of view
You are quite modest. IMHO it may be because of that pretty face of yours Raka
Regards,
Chris
benny - very well put in my opinion. if you're really 17, my hat is off to you.
One suggestion I'd like to make that just may raise the level of this forum is for people who don't know much about audio or the physics behind it to do a little reading on their own or surf the web for info. Learning how to learn is an important gateway to thinking, and that is what this audio hobby entails. So, instead of looking for a quick answer on here and having to sort through all kinds of input, try picking up a book or looking for it elsewhere on the web, even on here. That's what all the experienced people have done, there are no shortcuts. If one were to read or experiment just a little on their own, pretty soon they too might become contributors to this forum. I can see why some might choose to limit their time here,..it's because they are busy doing work! I know when time comes for me to be in my lab, there is not much time for anything else, let alone hanging out here and seeing what kind of argument I can get into.
One suggestion I'd like to make that just may raise the level of this forum is for people who don't know much about audio or the physics behind it to do a little reading on their own or surf the web for info. Learning how to learn is an important gateway to thinking, and that is what this audio hobby entails. So, instead of looking for a quick answer on here and having to sort through all kinds of input, try picking up a book or looking for it elsewhere on the web, even on here. That's what all the experienced people have done, there are no shortcuts. If one were to read or experiment just a little on their own, pretty soon they too might become contributors to this forum. I can see why some might choose to limit their time here,..it's because they are busy doing work! I know when time comes for me to be in my lab, there is not much time for anything else, let alone hanging out here and seeing what kind of argument I can get into.
hi retro,
yeah, it's true.
i think another way people can use this forum to further their learning, is read up and research something as part of your own learning, and once you feel confident in your own mind with it, use it when you get the chance to help someone with it... then what happens is any gaps, or mistakes you make will be picked up by the more experienced members. one of my first threads i entered on this forum i had a mistake of mine pointed out to me, and this just helps increase my knowledge. so respect the forum and the people on it, and the people and this forum will respect you.
anyway, i gotta go, it's 3 in the morning and i got an exam tomorow arvo, so i should get some sleep. too bad my sleeping patern's so screwed up. i'm like
right now, and in the afternoons.
like i said before, keep it real.... keep it audio
yeah, it's true.
i think another way people can use this forum to further their learning, is read up and research something as part of your own learning, and once you feel confident in your own mind with it, use it when you get the chance to help someone with it... then what happens is any gaps, or mistakes you make will be picked up by the more experienced members. one of my first threads i entered on this forum i had a mistake of mine pointed out to me, and this just helps increase my knowledge. so respect the forum and the people on it, and the people and this forum will respect you.
anyway, i gotta go, it's 3 in the morning and i got an exam tomorow arvo, so i should get some sleep. too bad my sleeping patern's so screwed up. i'm like
right now, and in the afternoons.like i said before, keep it real.... keep it audio
chris ma said:
The flap was over PD as a moderator using his influence to peddle his product (or at least perceived as such by some). PD resigned as a moderator, and more or less admitted that he should have acted differently. Problem solved. Now, unless you are a diehard masochist, I see no reason whatsoever to keep on sulking over this.
Jan Didden
Right I have not read page three as i dont have much time atm.
But I agree that there has not been much change since I started to post, about two years ago maybe a lil bit less, but as far as i can see there is no problem with flaming and all that. If a member is rude and literally says bad things about a qualified EE's ideas, then they should either be another EE who strongly dissagrees with the first EE's ideas. Or very stupid and not an EE simply because they dont know whats going on and have taken umbridge with DIYaudio that day. There are to my knowledge very few BAD posts on DIY and I for one welcome the experience and knowlegde of the educated ppl among us.
With regards to ppl selling stuff etc..... why not create a forum specifically aimed towards members selling stuff. Im sure there are a few members who might actually like to buy stuff other members have made, or am I missing the point here??
Anyway Ill still continue to post here until I get bored with DIY audio, which is likely never to happen, or my hands get cut off and my eyes poked in.
Matt
But I agree that there has not been much change since I started to post, about two years ago maybe a lil bit less, but as far as i can see there is no problem with flaming and all that. If a member is rude and literally says bad things about a qualified EE's ideas, then they should either be another EE who strongly dissagrees with the first EE's ideas. Or very stupid and not an EE simply because they dont know whats going on and have taken umbridge with DIYaudio that day. There are to my knowledge very few BAD posts on DIY and I for one welcome the experience and knowlegde of the educated ppl among us.
With regards to ppl selling stuff etc..... why not create a forum specifically aimed towards members selling stuff. Im sure there are a few members who might actually like to buy stuff other members have made, or am I missing the point here??
Anyway Ill still continue to post here until I get bored with DIY audio, which is likely never to happen, or my hands get cut off and my eyes poked in.
Matt
RetroAudio said:
I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think any of the experts left because of any commercial activity, I don't know who came up with that nonsense. You know why WJ left? Complete disrespect (NOT for his expertise, but as a normal human being). people were ripping of his design, selling it under his name, ignoring his polite question to stop it. YOU (collectively) chased him away. So stop crying.
And, as you rightly point out, lazyness, refusal do to even a minimum of your own research or thinking, THAT's what turns off anyone willing to give advise. The same stupid (in the sense that the answer could be found with 5 mins of using your brain) thing for the umpteenth time. So, it is YOU the lazy member (whoever fits the shoe...) that turns the WJ's and other experts away, NOT the commercial activity.
Yes, I do realise I ignored my own advice. No need to point it out. Maybe instead you can come up with an audio idea?
Jan Didden
What is this "we" stuff, white man????
I agree with all that you say, except that "we" didn't do it.
Only one person did that.
Sure, you can extrapolate that since no one outside the usual gang squawked about it, that we are all guilty.
No, I maintain that we aren't.
One person was told repeatedly to knock it off. He didn't.
The moderators pretended that they did not know it. They tried to say that only a small private group knew.
Hogwash.
But more importantly than "we" ran Walt off, is the fact that the actions that caused him to leave will also prevent his return.
This certain individual continues to mine the forum for ideas that he can turn into commercial products. He tries every stunt known to gain information that could be considered to be proprietary. He whines in private that he can not sell as many boards as another member does. He starts his own forum, to promote his own products. He registers on other forums and provides links to reviews of his products probably written by confederates. And yet he feigns interest as only doing this as just a way to blow of steam from not having the freedom to do as he pleases at his profession. Just a harmless little hobby, with no real intent to make money at it.
This is the kind of individual that you guys want as a moderator? Is this really the kind of individual that the forum "high sheriffs" want as a moderator?
Do you guys think that these food fights will ever cease until firm action is taken?
Well, it is your forum, guys. Maybe you don't own it. (Who does own it anyway? And what are their objectives. Inquiring minds want to know.), But you are what makes it happen. And when it is no longer "happening", who will you have to blame?
Well, maybe Jan is right.
Yourselves.
So.....more dire predictions of the "world coming to an end"? No. Just more of the same, only worse. If you guys want change for the positive, then you will have to demand it.
I agree with all that you say, except that "we" didn't do it.
Only one person did that.
Sure, you can extrapolate that since no one outside the usual gang squawked about it, that we are all guilty.
No, I maintain that we aren't.
One person was told repeatedly to knock it off. He didn't.
The moderators pretended that they did not know it. They tried to say that only a small private group knew.
Hogwash.
But more importantly than "we" ran Walt off, is the fact that the actions that caused him to leave will also prevent his return.
This certain individual continues to mine the forum for ideas that he can turn into commercial products. He tries every stunt known to gain information that could be considered to be proprietary. He whines in private that he can not sell as many boards as another member does. He starts his own forum, to promote his own products. He registers on other forums and provides links to reviews of his products probably written by confederates. And yet he feigns interest as only doing this as just a way to blow of steam from not having the freedom to do as he pleases at his profession. Just a harmless little hobby, with no real intent to make money at it.
This is the kind of individual that you guys want as a moderator? Is this really the kind of individual that the forum "high sheriffs" want as a moderator?
Do you guys think that these food fights will ever cease until firm action is taken?
Well, it is your forum, guys. Maybe you don't own it. (Who does own it anyway? And what are their objectives. Inquiring minds want to know.), But you are what makes it happen. And when it is no longer "happening", who will you have to blame?
Well, maybe Jan is right.
Yourselves.
So.....more dire predictions of the "world coming to an end"? No. Just more of the same, only worse. If you guys want change for the positive, then you will have to demand it.
benny, well said.
the problem with this forum isn't "knowledgeable members leaving". Our lives keep on, with or without those knowledgeable members. And with the nasty attitude and giant egos some of those knowledgeable membesr have towards the lesser ones, it is a good thing that they have left so that this place will remain helpful for all of us, not just some of us.
The problem as I see, and as benny had pointed out correctly, is civility. People aren't nice to others, and they aren't willing to have their point of views challenged. They insist on us taking their words as the ultimate truth, nothing short of that. No matter how shaky their "ultimate truth" is.
Moderation isn't the problem. nor is commercialization. lack of civility is.
the problem with this forum isn't "knowledgeable members leaving". Our lives keep on, with or without those knowledgeable members. And with the nasty attitude and giant egos some of those knowledgeable membesr have towards the lesser ones, it is a good thing that they have left so that this place will remain helpful for all of us, not just some of us.
The problem as I see, and as benny had pointed out correctly, is civility. People aren't nice to others, and they aren't willing to have their point of views challenged. They insist on us taking their words as the ultimate truth, nothing short of that. No matter how shaky their "ultimate truth" is.
Moderation isn't the problem. nor is commercialization. lack of civility is.
Re: What is this "we" stuff, white man????
This time "that" person did it. Last autumn, another did it. Maybe next summer I or you do it. No use singling out a certain person, if that is how you see it Jocko, you didn't get diddly of my point. WE did it. You could have started to make a difference, but instead chose to keep repeating the same old tired lines. Sigh.
Jan Didden
Jocko Homo said:
This time "that" person did it. Last autumn, another did it. Maybe next summer I or you do it. No use singling out a certain person, if that is how you see it Jocko, you didn't get diddly of my point. WE did it. You could have started to make a difference, but instead chose to keep repeating the same old tired lines. Sigh.
Jan Didden
Hey, shy people...
...why don't anyone want to spell out the problem in large letters: P-A is pushing stuff and he's a moderator. That's surely different from acting likewise as a "normal" member.
I, for one, had a really hard time understanding the "promotion" of P-A to moderator, and I still have. This goes - IMNSHO - for any board member that is well known for a) selling/pushing stuff, b) starting and participating in flame wars.
Well, lets see how long this post lives...
...why don't anyone want to spell out the problem in large letters: P-A is pushing stuff and he's a moderator. That's surely different from acting likewise as a "normal" member.
I, for one, had a really hard time understanding the "promotion" of P-A to moderator, and I still have. This goes - IMNSHO - for any board member that is well known for a) selling/pushing stuff, b) starting and participating in flame wars.
Well, lets see how long this post lives...
I believe that I got your point, Jan.
Maybe it is everyone else who missed the point.
Why is it only a small number of people who seem to believe that fairness is something that must be adhered to at all times?
No. I suspect the real problem is that the powers that be really don't care squat about fariness. And never will.
OK...maybe my tactics don't get an A+ in your book. I can accept that. But sometimes you need to beat someone over the head to get their attention.
So we are beating on their heads. And they are still not listening.
Jocko
Maybe it is everyone else who missed the point.
Why is it only a small number of people who seem to believe that fairness is something that must be adhered to at all times?
No. I suspect the real problem is that the powers that be really don't care squat about fariness. And never will.
OK...maybe my tactics don't get an A+ in your book. I can accept that. But sometimes you need to beat someone over the head to get their attention.
So we are beating on their heads. And they are still not listening.
Jocko
Hmm, I guess this have turned into the usual piefight
What was meant with commercial ripoff's wasnt PA selling a few boards for petty money, but that the forum have turned into a free research lab for some to make commercial products...im sorry but as far as Im concerned PA havnt done anything wrong, the regulator was as far as im concerned not exactly an invention made yesterday, and even if it was, we are talking petty money.
What I did mean with the commercial ripoff's issue was people like NP that dont care much about getting ripped off and still will show their work out in the open are few (he usually gets annoyed and takes legal actions when possible). Others will not post a thing when they can see that their work ends up in a commercial amp or the like.
Magura
What was meant with commercial ripoff's wasnt PA selling a few boards for petty money, but that the forum have turned into a free research lab for some to make commercial products...im sorry but as far as Im concerned PA havnt done anything wrong, the regulator was as far as im concerned not exactly an invention made yesterday, and even if it was, we are talking petty money.
What I did mean with the commercial ripoff's issue was people like NP that dont care much about getting ripped off and still will show their work out in the open are few (he usually gets annoyed and takes legal actions when possible). Others will not post a thing when they can see that their work ends up in a commercial amp or the like.
Magura
Hi,
As far as I'm concerned it has always been like that anyway...
If you have an idea and you post it into a public domain chances are someone will try to commercialise it if they think it's worth the effort.
If you don't want that to happen, don't post your idea and go commercial yourself.
Simple.
For as long as they're not trying to sell me my idea on this forum, I don't mind one yot.
You're not his accountant, are you?
In this case it wasn't about the money, not directly anyway, but about the abuse of a persons' name and I/P without that persons' consent.
You wonder where the piefights come from? Stop wondering...
Cheers,
As far as I'm concerned it has always been like that anyway...
If you have an idea and you post it into a public domain chances are someone will try to commercialise it if they think it's worth the effort.
If you don't want that to happen, don't post your idea and go commercial yourself.
Simple.
For as long as they're not trying to sell me my idea on this forum, I don't mind one yot.
You're not his accountant, are you?
In this case it wasn't about the money, not directly anyway, but about the abuse of a persons' name and I/P without that persons' consent.
You wonder where the piefights come from? Stop wondering...
Cheers,
- Status
- Not open for further replies.