Well - it's a balance.
No technology will help you for sure, unless you understand it's drawbacks as well as it's powers.
Equalization done right, can make any system sound much better. But in the hands of the wrong, but maybe well intentioned - it most certainly will sound worse.
My believe is that most of the gear that we can invest in - does very little positive or real difference, unless we study the basics in acoustics, electrics and human perception. Alot of focus is aimed at higher numbers and curves - but I'd argue that many people strugle to understand many of the data, that are so easily optained and collected today. This ofcourse does not make the curves and numbers more or less wrong or right. But everything has to be kept in the right context to be validt information and data.
No technology will help you for sure, unless you understand it's drawbacks as well as it's powers.
Equalization done right, can make any system sound much better. But in the hands of the wrong, but maybe well intentioned - it most certainly will sound worse.
My believe is that most of the gear that we can invest in - does very little positive or real difference, unless we study the basics in acoustics, electrics and human perception. Alot of focus is aimed at higher numbers and curves - but I'd argue that many people strugle to understand many of the data, that are so easily optained and collected today. This ofcourse does not make the curves and numbers more or less wrong or right. But everything has to be kept in the right context to be validt information and data.
Let's assume it's beneficial to eq the drivers flat within their passbands. Let's also assume we've dealt with room modes one way or another below say approximately 100Hz. Now we find, due to room reflections etc things aren't so good at the listening position, what limit, in numbers, do we put on the eq in an attempt to improve the situation?
There's a short list of when digital eq (or any eq) could make matters worse.
A power circuit shortcoming, port tube too short, amplifier's in- coupling cap too small, speaker build mismatches venue size, either missing or duplicate components between source and amplifier, harmonic issues, and there may be more.
The problem is that the eq probably worked perfectly, but isn't always the right tool for the job.
Saying that backwards is probably clearer: If all of the audio equipment has sufficient "means to work" then eq adjustments will work perfectly and exactly as expected. And, that convenience may be rare.
A power circuit shortcoming, port tube too short, amplifier's in- coupling cap too small, speaker build mismatches venue size, either missing or duplicate components between source and amplifier, harmonic issues, and there may be more.
The problem is that the eq probably worked perfectly, but isn't always the right tool for the job.
Saying that backwards is probably clearer: If all of the audio equipment has sufficient "means to work" then eq adjustments will work perfectly and exactly as expected. And, that convenience may be rare.
42?
Hehe, great init? People say things like, judicious, balance, too much fecks it up, blah blah blah
Hi Scott, you have introduced an interesting facet of dsp use
Assuming a flat freq response within the driver passband (and total speaker response too) is a really good starting point - "dealing with room modes below 100HZ" is not so easy at all, even at just the listening position, but some of the new programs are quite effective doing just that, particularly with multiple bass drivers and some of the 'better devices' (usually more expensive!) are quite effective at this
However, as you know, control of the wall/ceiling/floor reflections is an acoustical problem and the dsp can only counteract the reverberant effects by reducing/boosting the freq response itsef - I can't think if a way to put a number on it except to re-iterate the old rule of thumb about "40 - 60% of the sound quality in a domestic environments is directly dependent on the room itself" - some of the hifi critics are starting to mention this more often these days but retailers know that few consumers want to talk about the subject but it's slowly changing for the better
Without trying to be the 'devil's advocate' or anything, there's is little/no substitute for some acoustical treatment in regards to room reflections, including diffusion, so there's the 'trade-off' between 'listening position sound', freq response and eq
I mention diffusion as there's only the occasional discussion about the balance between direct and indirect sound in hifi circles (direct sound from the speaker and indirect or reflected sound from room barriers)
However, as the OP mentioned, using a 'reasonable' amount of dsp freq/phase adjustment can be quite beneficial indeed and a far better investment than the usual continuous change of components - the level of 'reasonable' obviously will depend on the situation, room, music, operator, volume, and especially the operators self-discipline to not overuse the dsp capabilities
Aiming for a freq response in a domestic environment better that +/-5db is a challenge (at above 90dB, for example) and to get much better than this, more effort, money, etc will be required, although easier with a 'good' dsp instrument
One often mentioned assumption is that everyone/anyone wants a listening position that has a flat freq response - some people like to listen to this but I don't, even for well recorded classical music - working with flat freq monitors was a daily event, but at home, quite boring.
... my 2 cents
Assuming a flat freq response within the driver passband (and total speaker response too) is a really good starting point - "dealing with room modes below 100HZ" is not so easy at all, even at just the listening position, but some of the new programs are quite effective doing just that, particularly with multiple bass drivers and some of the 'better devices' (usually more expensive!) are quite effective at this
However, as you know, control of the wall/ceiling/floor reflections is an acoustical problem and the dsp can only counteract the reverberant effects by reducing/boosting the freq response itsef - I can't think if a way to put a number on it except to re-iterate the old rule of thumb about "40 - 60% of the sound quality in a domestic environments is directly dependent on the room itself" - some of the hifi critics are starting to mention this more often these days but retailers know that few consumers want to talk about the subject but it's slowly changing for the better
Without trying to be the 'devil's advocate' or anything, there's is little/no substitute for some acoustical treatment in regards to room reflections, including diffusion, so there's the 'trade-off' between 'listening position sound', freq response and eq
I mention diffusion as there's only the occasional discussion about the balance between direct and indirect sound in hifi circles (direct sound from the speaker and indirect or reflected sound from room barriers)
However, as the OP mentioned, using a 'reasonable' amount of dsp freq/phase adjustment can be quite beneficial indeed and a far better investment than the usual continuous change of components - the level of 'reasonable' obviously will depend on the situation, room, music, operator, volume, and especially the operators self-discipline to not overuse the dsp capabilities
Aiming for a freq response in a domestic environment better that +/-5db is a challenge (at above 90dB, for example) and to get much better than this, more effort, money, etc will be required, although easier with a 'good' dsp instrument
One often mentioned assumption is that everyone/anyone wants a listening position that has a flat freq response - some people like to listen to this but I don't, even for well recorded classical music - working with flat freq monitors was a daily event, but at home, quite boring.
... my 2 cents
Hi James, a very informative post and thanks for trying to put some figures on it.
It's interesting what you say about the percentage of sound quality being due to the room, I'm not sure what you mean exactly but I presume reflections are the main part and also reverberation to a lesser degree?
I'm also interested in what you say about diffusion and indirect sound, I use dipoles so am to a degree familiar with the ideas. Early reflections are reduced and the late reflections from the front wall are delayed and diffused, this tends to even out the room response. I've also found that I get very good imagery and spacious sound field when I move towards the speakers so that I'm listening off axis and also hearing a lot of the reflected sound from the front wall. So, in other words, reflections aren't necessarily a bad thing, it depends on the timing and their frequency response.
When it comes to using EQ to tweak the room response my gut feeling is that it should have a maximum slope of 6dB/oct. So, that doesn't really allow for any narrow correction. Personally I don't use any EQ on my wideband speaker crossed over at 100Hz.
It's interesting what you say about the percentage of sound quality being due to the room, I'm not sure what you mean exactly but I presume reflections are the main part and also reverberation to a lesser degree?
I'm also interested in what you say about diffusion and indirect sound, I use dipoles so am to a degree familiar with the ideas. Early reflections are reduced and the late reflections from the front wall are delayed and diffused, this tends to even out the room response. I've also found that I get very good imagery and spacious sound field when I move towards the speakers so that I'm listening off axis and also hearing a lot of the reflected sound from the front wall. So, in other words, reflections aren't necessarily a bad thing, it depends on the timing and their frequency response.
When it comes to using EQ to tweak the room response my gut feeling is that it should have a maximum slope of 6dB/oct. So, that doesn't really allow for any narrow correction. Personally I don't use any EQ on my wideband speaker crossed over at 100Hz.
And, try and either listen very much in the near field - to minimise room effects.
I also like the very far field. I have a setting which results in good sound in other rooms, or down the garden - too loud in the living room but nice elsewhere...
That's effectively mono, which helps.
I am also fortunate in have in neighbour problems...
I also like the very far field. I have a setting which results in good sound in other rooms, or down the garden - too loud in the living room but nice elsewhere...
That's effectively mono, which helps.
I am also fortunate in have in neighbour problems...
Yes Scott, I'm in the same agreement with this way to perceive music (what a more convolute way of saying .... Jeez!)
Anyway, I find that following the idea of reflected sound about 10mSec via diffusers on the wall behind the drivers is beneficial for improving the overall sound and I'm playing with a couple of FR 8" & 10" drivers in a folded OB from >150Hz, which is a bit higher freq than I wanted, but slowly working my way up to a better setup, starting with the dsp - this brings the speakers out about 4ft from the wall behind them (front wall?) - with Maggies, this is pretty intrusive in a lounge room but with diffusers and absorber panels, the sound in a large room is rather good indeed - we have a really enthusiastic lot of 'Maggie-nuts' out here - big rooms help!
'Slowly' is probably a bit optimistic as I'm still in the middle of power supply projects for my F6 and F7 amps!
I have one of those Selectronic upgraded/modified Berhinger UltraPro dsp units and thinking about converting this to the new Ki Tan version but unsure about my SMD skills - we have a new dsp preamp slowly making it's way onto the market (Audio Precision, Sydney) but it's still quite a considerable price (estimated at about A$3k+), but nothing like the Liberty Audio ones and such highly promoted units - there seems to be a new crop of devices aimed at Pro-audio that are a more reasonable price but unknown sound quality or range of performance - early days yet
I have gone 'down the room acoustics road' with styrene foam diffusers ("Leanfusers' and Skylines) and playing with 'Limp Mass Bass Traps' for < 100Hz control of room modes - a mixed result, as expected, but a combination of trapping and dsp seems to be quite promising
One of the problems is that after hearing the really accurate extended bass from good headphones/amp, it's a bit hard to accept 'loose bass' from the speakers and the room - I definitely do want to hear each of those cello strings to start and stop and it's this 'stopping' in the room that presents most of the difficulty! The ported and/or transmission line boxes had to go and now down to 85 litre B2 boxes with 15" bass drivers - getting there!
A surprising thing is, we have a retail agent for those Shahinian speakers out here and also the rather expensive German Physic omnis - they certainly simplify room acoustic problems
As I prefer a non-flat room/speaker response, I'm more comfortable with using varying eq adjustment as the sound of different music 'genre' is so different, but it all depends on the transparency of that dsp, and better ones aren't so cheap - I've come around to the idea that a dsp preamp is not just an 'add-on' room acoustic 'tool' but an integrated system component in home hifi (the main problem with this is the 'not-so-cheap' bit!)
I've used the DSPs in studios a bit and the 'secret' with these is to use as little as possible even if you're careful - they are magic boxes but 'oh so overdone' - intelligibility (detail /transparency in hifi terms?) goes straight out the window, even with good dsp units
I tend to chatter ...
Anyway, I find that following the idea of reflected sound about 10mSec via diffusers on the wall behind the drivers is beneficial for improving the overall sound and I'm playing with a couple of FR 8" & 10" drivers in a folded OB from >150Hz, which is a bit higher freq than I wanted, but slowly working my way up to a better setup, starting with the dsp - this brings the speakers out about 4ft from the wall behind them (front wall?) - with Maggies, this is pretty intrusive in a lounge room but with diffusers and absorber panels, the sound in a large room is rather good indeed - we have a really enthusiastic lot of 'Maggie-nuts' out here - big rooms help!
'Slowly' is probably a bit optimistic as I'm still in the middle of power supply projects for my F6 and F7 amps!
I have one of those Selectronic upgraded/modified Berhinger UltraPro dsp units and thinking about converting this to the new Ki Tan version but unsure about my SMD skills - we have a new dsp preamp slowly making it's way onto the market (Audio Precision, Sydney) but it's still quite a considerable price (estimated at about A$3k+), but nothing like the Liberty Audio ones and such highly promoted units - there seems to be a new crop of devices aimed at Pro-audio that are a more reasonable price but unknown sound quality or range of performance - early days yet
I have gone 'down the room acoustics road' with styrene foam diffusers ("Leanfusers' and Skylines) and playing with 'Limp Mass Bass Traps' for < 100Hz control of room modes - a mixed result, as expected, but a combination of trapping and dsp seems to be quite promising
One of the problems is that after hearing the really accurate extended bass from good headphones/amp, it's a bit hard to accept 'loose bass' from the speakers and the room - I definitely do want to hear each of those cello strings to start and stop and it's this 'stopping' in the room that presents most of the difficulty! The ported and/or transmission line boxes had to go and now down to 85 litre B2 boxes with 15" bass drivers - getting there!
A surprising thing is, we have a retail agent for those Shahinian speakers out here and also the rather expensive German Physic omnis - they certainly simplify room acoustic problems
As I prefer a non-flat room/speaker response, I'm more comfortable with using varying eq adjustment as the sound of different music 'genre' is so different, but it all depends on the transparency of that dsp, and better ones aren't so cheap - I've come around to the idea that a dsp preamp is not just an 'add-on' room acoustic 'tool' but an integrated system component in home hifi (the main problem with this is the 'not-so-cheap' bit!)
I've used the DSPs in studios a bit and the 'secret' with these is to use as little as possible even if you're careful - they are magic boxes but 'oh so overdone' - intelligibility (detail /transparency in hifi terms?) goes straight out the window, even with good dsp units
I tend to chatter ...
Does anyone in the wilds of NE Scotland have neighbor problems?
I've heard rumours about Inverness, but....
As little as poss is indeed the best way, probably with any eq. The advantage of DSP techniques is to allow that "as little as possible" to be applied with the most accuracy and discretion though.
A couple of years ago, at an AES function, the guys from Bodzio (a local audio professional company) explained the 'ins & outs' of their program and it was focused on Phase control, manipulation, compensation, etc and only a brief mention of the usual dsp discussions about filter slopes, timing adjustment, and so on - way beyond my limited understanding but the possibilities were quite surprising back then.
Some of this has already found it's way into everyday use in the rapidly developing dsp area in 'pro-audio' - what can be achieved nowadays is quite astonishing to only a few years ago but, unfortunately, this is quite slow to find it's way into common hifi use, or products - mind you, these sophisticated programs are 'even more easy' (sorry!) to stuff-up than a Studio DEQX, for example, and they're not easy to use in the first place.
However, some of the newer dsp preamps are bridging the gap and within a few years, if not sooner, the price will come right down plus the pressure from the computer based versions will bring them within easier reach of us ordinary pundits/enthusiasts.
I think this is a 'turning point' in audio reproduction in our lounge rooms but we still have this strange reluctance to embrace the readily available knowledge and tools for better room acoustical control - it's a puzzle
Another really handy tool in pro-audio is the 'audio analog' program - you can choose whatever level of "analogue sound" you want to add to the sound stream - it's much more convenient than buying an expensive turntable and new records (that have been digitally processed anyway) - it's a very confusing period.
Some of this has already found it's way into everyday use in the rapidly developing dsp area in 'pro-audio' - what can be achieved nowadays is quite astonishing to only a few years ago but, unfortunately, this is quite slow to find it's way into common hifi use, or products - mind you, these sophisticated programs are 'even more easy' (sorry!) to stuff-up than a Studio DEQX, for example, and they're not easy to use in the first place.
However, some of the newer dsp preamps are bridging the gap and within a few years, if not sooner, the price will come right down plus the pressure from the computer based versions will bring them within easier reach of us ordinary pundits/enthusiasts.
I think this is a 'turning point' in audio reproduction in our lounge rooms but we still have this strange reluctance to embrace the readily available knowledge and tools for better room acoustical control - it's a puzzle
Another really handy tool in pro-audio is the 'audio analog' program - you can choose whatever level of "analogue sound" you want to add to the sound stream - it's much more convenient than buying an expensive turntable and new records (that have been digitally processed anyway) - it's a very confusing period.
Problem with a flat response in the listening position, is that it will only be flat at the very spot, where the mic i positioned.
I belive that you need to have speakers with flat anechoic response from around 500hz and above - depending on room size and then go for controlled dispersion and multiple subs. This results in a much wider listening window and equal distribution of the sound/music.
If you "mix" direct sound with room acoustics - then your mic will not know the difference at a certain distance, with respect to a given frequency.
In a blind test, the majority prefer a flat response through out the frequency spectrum, maybe with a slight boost in the lower octave and a mildly falling curve towards the highs.
Atkinson and Toole, clearly describe this in their presentation on youtube.
I only use eq to adjust driver response in my midrange and tweeter, like a normal crossover helped by the shape of the cabinet. In the bass I have to correct for my room a little and with my subs I only need to attenuate for a single room mode - multiple subs take care of the rest.
I no expert, but I do know that it's problematic to mix driver response with room response - if your not carefull.
Geddes keeps telling us - problems with acoustics, need to be taken care of in the domain of acoustics - not the electrical.
Could it be more suitable for pro-audio due to the size of the rooms being used, spacing of speakers etc?
Thanks 'digitalthor' - couldn't agree more -
I haven't progressed to multiple subs for bass yet but this is pretty much the direction I'll be following too - we're very fortunate out here to have a very good speaker driver manufacturers (Lorantz, one of the very best in Pro-audio) and it may be possible to achieve that extended low distortion, low bass that I like so much plus refine the low freq response (a lot of lows here!) in this 6 x 5 metre room (with unfortunately 2.3m ceilings)
I have played around with the idea of muktiple subs and got 'quite reasonable' (sorry for the vague) results with unsuitable speakers, so with well-designed units I'm sure very good results can be achieved with some care taken and a bit of work - with an added good quality dsp, I hope to get really excellent results to suit my widely varying musical tastes
Yes, Scott, it's true that the dsp does find better use in bigger rooms and higher volumes but the recent developments in processor programs have done a lot to tackle the bass and more difficult low bass (<32Hz) and this allows quite a 'big improvement' in domestic listening rooms - my "big improvement" phrase is quite vague, I hasten to admit, as most of the extended bass systems I've heard are not good at all but I like to say "the revolution has started"!
I love to read up on what the James Romeyn/AudioKinesis guys are doing - we also have some of the Shahinian speakers out here and the 'musical picture' they paint is really pleasant to listen too and very easy to setup even in 'difficult rooms'
I once had access to one of those Cello preamplifiers and initially, I was like a kid in a chocolate shop and fiddled/faddled to my heart's content - I couldn't get over what you could do with that thing - but it soon became a chore, as these things aren't a universal tone control at all, but a highly specialized piece of gear that are quite difficult to use well - I don't suggest everyone to rush out and buy a dsp either, but they're a h*ll of a lot easier to use and with a much wider range of abilities
... just saying (and back to the original OP)
I haven't progressed to multiple subs for bass yet but this is pretty much the direction I'll be following too - we're very fortunate out here to have a very good speaker driver manufacturers (Lorantz, one of the very best in Pro-audio) and it may be possible to achieve that extended low distortion, low bass that I like so much plus refine the low freq response (a lot of lows here!) in this 6 x 5 metre room (with unfortunately 2.3m ceilings)
I have played around with the idea of muktiple subs and got 'quite reasonable' (sorry for the vague) results with unsuitable speakers, so with well-designed units I'm sure very good results can be achieved with some care taken and a bit of work - with an added good quality dsp, I hope to get really excellent results to suit my widely varying musical tastes
Yes, Scott, it's true that the dsp does find better use in bigger rooms and higher volumes but the recent developments in processor programs have done a lot to tackle the bass and more difficult low bass (<32Hz) and this allows quite a 'big improvement' in domestic listening rooms - my "big improvement" phrase is quite vague, I hasten to admit, as most of the extended bass systems I've heard are not good at all but I like to say "the revolution has started"!
I love to read up on what the James Romeyn/AudioKinesis guys are doing - we also have some of the Shahinian speakers out here and the 'musical picture' they paint is really pleasant to listen too and very easy to setup even in 'difficult rooms'
I once had access to one of those Cello preamplifiers and initially, I was like a kid in a chocolate shop and fiddled/faddled to my heart's content - I couldn't get over what you could do with that thing - but it soon became a chore, as these things aren't a universal tone control at all, but a highly specialized piece of gear that are quite difficult to use well - I don't suggest everyone to rush out and buy a dsp either, but they're a h*ll of a lot easier to use and with a much wider range of abilities
... just saying (and back to the original OP)
Your welcome
I discovered them a few years ago and had to see them more than ones, to wrap my head around most of what they are talking about
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