Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Why?
Why?
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th June 2018, 01:02 PM   #1
radiosmuck is offline radiosmuck  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
radiosmuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Montreal
Cool Why?

Why is it whenever I turn on my HD Digital TV, I'm always amazed at the resolution compared to those analog days?
Why is there printed on the reverse of my CD, The Wall by Pink Floyd. "The sound of the original recording has been preserved as close as possible, however due to it's high resolution, the compact disc can reveal limitations of the source tape"?
Why is there now a complete flip flop in certain quarters that find some sort purity of sound in old record players and charity shop vinyl?
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2018, 05:52 PM   #2
spaceistheplace is online now spaceistheplace
diyAudio Member
 
spaceistheplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Proxima Centauri b
Why?
Default WHY?

To me, I see HD TVs and a lot of blue ray discs (especially those made from classic films, apocalypse now comes to mind as I saw it recently in its new edition) seem unusual and unnatural..... bordering alien. Certainly not what I would call “life like” ... at least according to my vision / brain.

Do I think it’s because I perceive what is “less resolution” as more accurate? I don’t believe so.

There’s something in the upsampling / remastering / decoding that isn’t quite right.

4K resolution of a bad photograph is still a bad photograph. The increased resolution is fairly useless. I think capturing realism is a more multifaceted issue.

Some TV brands or models are less offensive than others for me. Sony and LG for example I’ve found to be more “natural” than Samsung. I’m not sure what technology differences account for it, and it was just my casual observations in looking for a TV for my home.

I’m not saying all vinyl is superior to CD or making any grandiose or blanket claims. Im not advocating “quantum” power conditioners. I’m simply saying that the path to realism is not only linked to high resolution of the playback format.
__________________
The real aim of music is to co-ordinate the minds of the people into an intelligent reach for a better world and an intelligent approach to the living future.

Last edited by spaceistheplace; 8th June 2018 at 05:58 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2018, 08:29 PM   #3
Cal Weldon is offline Cal Weldon  Canada
Speakerholic
diyAudio Moderator
 
Cal Weldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Near Vancouver
Why?
I remember the first HDTV I bought, back in the 720p days. Brought it home, without the cable box mind you, and just about took it back the picture was so bad. Only a friend convinced me I would like it once I had the box. How true that was.
__________________
planet10 needs your help:
Let's help Ruth and Dave
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2018, 09:14 PM   #4
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Haarlem, the Netherlands
Our Samsung TV came with a calibration CD-R required to get it to produce far more realistic colours than it does with its default settings. The calibration CD-R was not provided by Samsung, but by the shop that sold the TV. You never needed anything like that when televisions still had cathode ray tubes.

We mainly use the TV to watch standard definition programmes, by the way. The lower resolution doesn't bother us at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2018, 09:45 PM   #5
Luke is offline Luke  New Zealand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Why? Send a message via AIM to Luke
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceistheplace View Post
To me, I see HD TVs and a lot of blue ray discs (especially those made from classic films, apocalypse now comes to mind as I saw it recently in its new edition) seem unusual and unnatural..... bordering alien. Certainly not what I would call “life like” ... at least according to my vision / brain.

Do I think it’s because I perceive what is “less resolution” as more accurate? I don’t believe so.

There’s something in the upsampling / remastering / decoding that isn’t quite right.

4K resolution of a bad photograph is still a bad photograph. The increased resolution is fairly useless. I think capturing realism is a more multifaceted issue.

Some TV brands or models are less offensive than others for me. Sony and LG for example I’ve found to be more “natural” than Samsung. I’m not sure what technology differences account for it, and it was just my casual observations in looking for a TV for my home.

I’m not saying all vinyl is superior to CD or making any grandiose or blanket claims. Im not advocating “quantum” power conditioners. I’m simply saying that the path to realism is not only linked to high resolution of the playback format.
I noticed this when I bought a new 4K TV last year (samsung series 6 40" smart tv). There was something unnatural about the motion, picture had amazing clarity but there was something wrong. I got used to it and now I don't see it anymore, interesting that I was probably not imagining it.
__________________
If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish he will buy an ugly hat. And if you talk about fish to a starving man then you are a consultant. Dilbert
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2018, 09:52 PM   #6
Galu is offline Galu  Scotland
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
I consider standard definition to be poorer than old analog, while high definition does a good job of recreating it. 4K Ultra HD is something else!

The CD statement must be marketing hype! I'd happily live with the so-called limitations of the source tape.

The interest in old record players and old vinyl has more to do with nostalgia or fashion than purity of sound. However new vinyl on a quality turntable? That's a different matter!
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2018, 12:22 AM   #7
Tubelab_com is offline Tubelab_com  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Tubelab_com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Virginia panhandle
Quote:
I bought a new 4K TV last year (samsung series 6 40" smart tv). There was something unnatural about the motion, picture had amazing clarity but there was something wrong.
Two pre-Christmas sales ago I got a cheap ($229) Hisense 43 inch 4K TV at Walmart. I use it for a computer monitor and it is not connected to an antenna or cable. Some of the 4K content on YouTube is stunning in it's realism. Pictures and video that I have taken on my own equipment look lifelike and realistic.

Last year's pre-Christmas sale got me a $300 Samsung series 6 40 inch 4K TV, again not connected to any live TV source. As you stated, at first I preferred the Hisense, primarily because the Samsung was different. The two TV's are near each other, but connected to different PC's. You can see both easily enough so I ran the same material through both TV's and tweaked the Samsung to get close to the Hisense in picture. The Samsung has some "motion" features to simulate "120 Hz" on a 60 Hz TV. Turn them off, it will sharpen up the picture and 60Hz is fast enough unless you are a serious gamer, which I am not.

After using them both for several months they have swapped positions and I now prefer the Samsung for video editing. Part of this could be due to the new video card feeding the Samsung. A budget GTX1050 feeds the Samsung and it can do 4K at 60Hz. The Hisense is on an older PC that uses the "4600 graphics" built into the Intel processor. The Core i5-4670K isn't even specified for 4K, but it will do 4K at 30 Hz just fine.
__________________
Tubelab, it's 5 year mission. To explore strange new tubes, to seek out new circuits and topologies, to boldly go where no tube has gone before......
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2018, 12:27 AM   #8
silasmellor is offline silasmellor  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Denmark
Why?
Part of it is also the tendency to record things in different framerate and using non-traditional shutter speeds, which will give a very different feel to any subject in motion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2018, 05:47 AM   #9
VenusFly is online now VenusFly  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
VenusFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Why?
I did tests recently regarding the capture of VHS video tapes on my computer and I can tell you from my experience that H.264 part 10 does a poor job even at 7500kbps (very high bitrate for D1 resolution(720x576)) at capturing fine grain detail in the VHS tape. In fact with thorough A/B comparisons I'm settling on archiving everything into MPEG-2 or just plain leaving it in magicYUV (YUV2 4:2:0 lossless)

This is with a 6 head VCR. More info can be found here:
Whats the LAST movie you have watched?


Should also be noted that I've decided to archive the video in MPEG-2 instead of H.264 for the very reason that the fine video detail has disappeared when encoding in H.264 Part 10.


I believe that the entire HDTV craze is nothing more than trickery involving sophisticated digital noise reduction that has been embedded in the codec itself. As others have said in this thread 480p and 720p can look worse than old analog video, this is true, very true, all of the blame lies on the fact that compression technology has more to do with the economies of broadcasting and streaming high bitrate codecs versus the old days when analog television had a significantly large amount of bandwidth to deal with and in the VHF era under good conditions with a good rotatable antenna could surpass digitally encoded 480p/576p in video quality.

We've all been deceived. Analog video is truly amazing once you've gotten hang of it, I should know I used to watch analog satellite tv, and remember that there were Analog HD formats out there, MUSE or Hi-Vision on Laserdisc, Extended Definition Betamax for Betamax:
Betamax - Wikipedia

I personally would love to see a consumer grade Analog HD videotape or DVD standard come onto the scene, just like the vinyl and cassette tape resurgence currently going on we could do the same for video.

The only other alternative would be to push those MPEG-2 bitrate sliders all the way to 15,000kbps and/or encode everything in lossless MagicYUV. MPEG-2 and H.264 are for sure not the answer to keeping all of the detail in a video. We need a much better codec.


If it takes 30GB of hard drive space to record just 1 and a 1/2 hours of analog video tape footage with all of the grainy detail intact, lossless, then something is terribly wrong with our way of thinking regarding preserving anything from the analog era. You might as well just stabilize it and copy it back onto analog tape for all the good we are doing.


After all storage is cheap these days, as they keep on saying.

Last edited by VenusFly; 9th June 2018 at 05:59 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2018, 11:46 AM   #10
Tubelab_com is offline Tubelab_com  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Tubelab_com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Virginia panhandle
Quote:
analog television had a significantly large amount of bandwidth to deal with and in the VHF era
At least here in the US, analog TV on VHF or UHF and modern digital TV on either band all get 6 MHz of spectrum space for each RF channel.

An analog NTSC stream in the US had 525 lines of which 486 actually carried video. The analog modulation of each line was limited to under 5 MHz of signal bandwidth with a chunk taken out of the middle for the color information. This rate supported about 700 "pixels" of nearly infinite shading under IDEAL conditions. There are about 375,000 "bits" of analog information per TV frame, which is updated at an effective rate of 29.97 Hz. Other popular TV formats do have more lines with 625 being used in PAL.

A 1080 HD video stream however has 1080 "lines" by 1920 pixels. Each pixel carries 8 bits of information for each of the 3 primary colors, or 24 bits per pixel. This creates over 2 million 24 bit words per frame. Of course some form of compression is needed.....as you state, that's where the problem lies.

It is up to the individual broadcaster or cable company how they use their bandwidth. There are multiple standard choices. In the US, an over the air TV station can devote the entire 6 MHz channel to a single 1080P TV stream. Many of the big city TV stations do exactly that, and the picture quality is quite good. You have to critically watch a well produced video to find the compression artifacts.

Here in the middle of nowhere we have two over the air TV channels. OTA channel 9 stuffs a 1080i network stream, a 720P network stream, and a 480i stream through their 6 MHz allocation. Compression is quite obvious. OTA channel 7 stuffs a 1080i network stream, a 720P network stream, and TWO 480i streams through their 6 MHz allocation. The picture quality......

The cable company here stuffs about 300 TV streams, internet and phone service down cable that is over 20 years old. Some of their video streams make the OTA channels look good. They seem to allocate more bandwidth to the most watched channels, so if you don't watch the mainstream crap, and prefer some of the less popular channels, you get to watch obvious pixelization and occasional breakup of the entire screen.

It's all about the money......more streams per MHz equals more advertising revenue.
__________________
Tubelab, it's 5 year mission. To explore strange new tubes, to seek out new circuits and topologies, to boldly go where no tube has gone before......
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Why?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:12 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.00%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki