Someone who had been diagnosed on the autistic spectrum was recently listening to music with me and it provided some insights that I hadn’t considered before. I thought perhaps some here might be interested in it, or could further illuminate for everyone’s benefit.
These were cursory observations in an uncontrolled, casual environment however they were clear enough to me to warrant some thought and further research.
Their sensitivity/response to various musical information was strikingly different to mine, even though we shared taste and listened to music we were both familiar with.
For example, they found certain sounds (in one instance a bell) distasteful, shrill and unpleasant while I felt the opposite. I hesitate to go into a long list specific differences as I think it will derail my point and place too much focus on this specific encounter rather than looking at is as indicative of a wider phenomena.
Obviously this is one person in one sliver of the population, however I noticed a lot of different academic articles on the subject which might point to possibilities in unpacking the difference in preferences of the general population.
I’m not suggested that those with strong preferences are somehow autistic. I’m also not discounting various biases and sociological/ psychological explanations for preferences. I’m simply saying that there could be other forces at work and this body of research in Autism and auditory stimuli could provide some insights.
Also, other sensory research such as that into Tetrachromacy could provide additional useful data. How can I be certain the blue I see when I look up in the sky is the same hue as yours?
My arm-chair theory (I’m certainly not a neurologist!) is that like a loudspeaker might be +3db at 15khz, our ears, or rather more importantly the CNS / behavioral response to and “interpretation” of the input from our ears might give us varying behavioral / emotional responses depending on biological differences in the population.
In this way a microphone capturing a frequency response from a loudspeaker in a room would not accurately measure the experience of that frequency response from the listener.
So, I’m not looking to get in the murky debate about those with “better hearing” or “Golden ears” but rather “different hearing”.
Of course, mood or a few cocktails can alter our experience as well. I’m more curious if there is a varying baseline, and to use outliers to make some hypotheses about variations in the general population.
Again, I’m not making any claims. Im not arguing that there is no point in designing for an accurate frequency response.
I’m offering a very interesting experience I had and wanted to hear input from others who may have more knowledge in this field.
I think there are implications for a lot of the more “circuitous” conversations that sprawl throughout the forum. My hope is that this conversation not descend into armed encampments separated by a moat.
But my greatest hope would be that the unique wealth of experience and skill in this forum could lead to some tangible benefit for a suffering population of people.
Some references:
https://www.asha.org/Events/convent...ith-Autism-Auditory-and-Language-Differences/
Autonomic and behavioral responses of children with autism to auditory stimuli. - PubMed - NCBI
Describing the sensory abnormalities of children and adults with autism. - PubMed - NCBI
Autistic people can hear more than most – which can be a strength and a challenge
Tetrachromacy:
BBC - Future - The women with superhuman vision
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/dec/15/san-diego-artist-could-be-seeing-extra-dimension-c/
These were cursory observations in an uncontrolled, casual environment however they were clear enough to me to warrant some thought and further research.
Their sensitivity/response to various musical information was strikingly different to mine, even though we shared taste and listened to music we were both familiar with.
For example, they found certain sounds (in one instance a bell) distasteful, shrill and unpleasant while I felt the opposite. I hesitate to go into a long list specific differences as I think it will derail my point and place too much focus on this specific encounter rather than looking at is as indicative of a wider phenomena.
Obviously this is one person in one sliver of the population, however I noticed a lot of different academic articles on the subject which might point to possibilities in unpacking the difference in preferences of the general population.
I’m not suggested that those with strong preferences are somehow autistic. I’m also not discounting various biases and sociological/ psychological explanations for preferences. I’m simply saying that there could be other forces at work and this body of research in Autism and auditory stimuli could provide some insights.
Also, other sensory research such as that into Tetrachromacy could provide additional useful data. How can I be certain the blue I see when I look up in the sky is the same hue as yours?
My arm-chair theory (I’m certainly not a neurologist!) is that like a loudspeaker might be +3db at 15khz, our ears, or rather more importantly the CNS / behavioral response to and “interpretation” of the input from our ears might give us varying behavioral / emotional responses depending on biological differences in the population.
In this way a microphone capturing a frequency response from a loudspeaker in a room would not accurately measure the experience of that frequency response from the listener.
So, I’m not looking to get in the murky debate about those with “better hearing” or “Golden ears” but rather “different hearing”.
Of course, mood or a few cocktails can alter our experience as well. I’m more curious if there is a varying baseline, and to use outliers to make some hypotheses about variations in the general population.
Again, I’m not making any claims. Im not arguing that there is no point in designing for an accurate frequency response.
I’m offering a very interesting experience I had and wanted to hear input from others who may have more knowledge in this field.
I think there are implications for a lot of the more “circuitous” conversations that sprawl throughout the forum. My hope is that this conversation not descend into armed encampments separated by a moat.
But my greatest hope would be that the unique wealth of experience and skill in this forum could lead to some tangible benefit for a suffering population of people.
Some references:
https://www.asha.org/Events/convent...ith-Autism-Auditory-and-Language-Differences/
Autonomic and behavioral responses of children with autism to auditory stimuli. - PubMed - NCBI
Describing the sensory abnormalities of children and adults with autism. - PubMed - NCBI
Autistic people can hear more than most – which can be a strength and a challenge
Tetrachromacy:
BBC - Future - The women with superhuman vision
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/dec/15/san-diego-artist-could-be-seeing-extra-dimension-c/
Many things can have an effect on the auditory experience. I find that food can alter it. Exercise and recovery from it can change things too.
It is bi-directional: great music on a good sounding system can alter your experience with food. Not only the experience, but the actual meal in my case. Good sound can get me going and motivate me to make some salad and fruit juice before cooking a regular meal (say, chicken and rice). It also helps me to better digest, believe it or not. To get well nourished and feel healthy.
Did you see the article DPH has posted on the Blowtorch thread? Justice is served, but more so after lunch: how food-breaks sway the decisions of judges - Not Exactly Rocket Science : Not Exactly Rocket Science
I see my post is not exactly on the proposed topic, but...
-Alex
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The Basement Tapes
What is a son’s obligation to his father?
Revisionist History Podcast
I really enjoyed it, very touching, thanks.
BTW I don´t fry my chicken in the common vegetable oils. Lard or coconut oil for my frying, please.
-Alex
What is a son’s obligation to his father?
Revisionist History Podcast
I really enjoyed it, very touching, thanks.
BTW I don´t fry my chicken in the common vegetable oils. Lard or coconut oil for my frying, please.
-Alex
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I have Asperger's, which counts as a minor autistic disorder, but I don't suffer from it. It is sometimes unhandy when I try to communicate with people without autism, but it also has its advantages, such as attention to details and being less vulnerable to social pressure.
I don't think there is anything special about my perception of music. I very much dislike fast classical piano music and Andre Hazes, but that's about it.
People with autism filter out less details subconsciously than people without autism. I can imagine that affects their perception of music, but maybe I'm not autistic enough to see a big difference.
I don't think there is anything special about my perception of music. I very much dislike fast classical piano music and Andre Hazes, but that's about it.
People with autism filter out less details subconsciously than people without autism. I can imagine that affects their perception of music, but maybe I'm not autistic enough to see a big difference.
Yes I’ve listened to that one.
The largest government funded double blind health study (I believe) in the history of our planet was found to be seriously flawed and provided nutritional misinformation to the general public for decades.
That doesn’t give me much faith in the ABX audio testing, even though in many instances they serve a purpose and are a firewall for snake oil.
Nonetheless, it at the very least would be wise to be more scientifically thorough and consider all other possible variable not previously considered, of which there are many and which are presently not well understood.
Thanks for the insights.
I’m curious if there’s there’s a higher autistic spectrum density in the field of audio engineering or in the audio hobby.
Did you by chance review any of the studies I posted?
It seems a lot more complex to me than detail filtering from what I’ve read. In some instances, detail exacerbation / hypersensitivity.
Edit: for example some selected differences:
Autistic people were better at detecting additional unexpected and expected sounds (increased distraction and superior performance respectively). This suggests that they have increased auditory perceptual capacity relative to non-autistic people. This increased capacity may offer an explanation for the auditory superiorities seen in autism (e.g. heightened pitch detection).
Higher cerebral reactivity to the deviance which may reflect hypersensitivity to acoustic change
Differences in MSO/LSO (Time and Intensity Differences)
Differences in Inferior Olive (integration of visual and auditory information)
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My 16 year old son has Asperger's. BTW, since the introduction of Obamacare in the US, there is no medical CPT code for Aspeger's separately, so his diagnosis is autism.
Just so you know where he is on the spectrum. He's high functioning, most people would just think he's a little weird. Math has become his world in the last year or two, with science close behind. He's kept a perfect 100 average in honors algebra, and is learning trig and calculus on his own at the same time. A nerd. He has a terrible time saying what he wants to, it is impossible to be succinct. Absolutely nothing can be said in one sentence. Writing about a subject is his worst enemy, there is no abstract thought.
He never cared for music until about 13 years old, when he found disco. We have listened to the the same 4 CD's for the last 3-1/2 years when he's in the car, because that's his music. Routine. We must listen at a volume equivalent to normal speech. Loud music is shocking.
Loud noises have always bothered him waaay more than a normal person. As a little boy, I though he was over reacting, as a spoiled child. But smells are the same way. It's as if he doesn't hear or smell on the same logarithmic scale as we do. Highly dynamic music is not acceptable.
I haven't noticed any frequency-specific aversions, except for high-pitched ringing and such.
-Tim
Just so you know where he is on the spectrum. He's high functioning, most people would just think he's a little weird. Math has become his world in the last year or two, with science close behind. He's kept a perfect 100 average in honors algebra, and is learning trig and calculus on his own at the same time. A nerd. He has a terrible time saying what he wants to, it is impossible to be succinct. Absolutely nothing can be said in one sentence. Writing about a subject is his worst enemy, there is no abstract thought.
He never cared for music until about 13 years old, when he found disco. We have listened to the the same 4 CD's for the last 3-1/2 years when he's in the car, because that's his music. Routine. We must listen at a volume equivalent to normal speech. Loud music is shocking.
Loud noises have always bothered him waaay more than a normal person. As a little boy, I though he was over reacting, as a spoiled child. But smells are the same way. It's as if he doesn't hear or smell on the same logarithmic scale as we do. Highly dynamic music is not acceptable.
I haven't noticed any frequency-specific aversions, except for high-pitched ringing and such.
-Tim
There seems to be a large range in the general population. Not sure if it's ears or brains or both. Given my age and location, I should love rock-n-roll. But I don't and never did - because of the screaming guitar distortion. Really shredding it? I'll run screaming from the room. Bad violin recordings do the same for me.
But I have friends who are even more sensitive to bad treble than I am, and who are constantly on the search for that magic amp/speaker combo. The bell mentioned in the OP would drive them mad. I don't know why the difference.
But I have friends who are even more sensitive to bad treble than I am, and who are constantly on the search for that magic amp/speaker combo. The bell mentioned in the OP would drive them mad. I don't know why the difference.
And that's why its called Autism Spectrum Disorder. The spectrum is very wide. I've run across many people in my area of rural south Georgia who have it, and fortunately most that I've run across are similar and on the higher end of the spectrum. I can see mild traits in myself that make me wonder if everyone has some degree of it, or more precisely, if it's just a normal neurological process that is intensely magnified in these individuals.
I think part of the issue (with the bell, for example) is focus. When they zero in on something, good or bad, it's all they can think about. If the bell annoyed me, I'd just try to ignore it. Someone on the spectrum wouldn't be able to ignore it, and may literally zone in on that one stimulation. The result could be anything from turning the music off to an hours-long total meltdown.
These traits have become both frustrating and very endearing over the years. I have always appreciated people that are true individuals, and when I meet someone with autism, I smile and enjoy them because they are truly their own selves.
from the OP:
Exactly, except IMHO, it may be less of a general frequency range issue and more a problem of certain attributes of a sound. Perhaps the initial strike of the bell at such a high frequency. The tone of the bell might be pleasant if it weren't for the spike when the clapper strikes the bell.
Agreed it’s not as simple as freq. response. I don’t have a background in the field so I’m attempting to be conceptual / general.
We listened to the same thing and yet did not. The differences were clearly dramatic.
‘Given competent design, things should sound much the same’ assumes all listeners experience of sound is the same.
This is a huge flawed assumption in my mind.
There is more at work.
We listened to the same thing and yet did not. The differences were clearly dramatic.
‘Given competent design, things should sound much the same’ assumes all listeners experience of sound is the same.
This is a huge flawed assumption in my mind.
There is more at work.
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Of course there is, just like in any other field of engineering/technical or scientific hobbies. By the way, I don't know if you ever read this humoristic text about engineers Gav's World : Engineers Explained , but it's a pretty accurate description of Asperger's.
I didn't, I only had a few minute's time to reply before going to work.
This is an interesting psychological test when you want to know how autistic you are:
Autism Spectrum Quotient
It doesn't count as a diagnosis, of course, but it gives a pretty good indication anyway.
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This is the crux of what I’m driving at.
Clarity at low volumes is essential. Going past 9 or so on the knob is an anomaly.
The way you describe your son is quite similar to the individual I was with. I’m glad he has found areas in which he excels and feels satisfied by.
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I will give it a read now. Thanks.
Given this, wouldn’t it be sensible to operate under the assumption that some here might be not lovers of “distortion” or “poor engineering” but rather making an attempt to reengineer sound to suit their unique brain chemistry? In other words, make it “feel correct” for them. Of course, in practice I’m sure susceptible to misguidance, misinformation, snake oil and so on, but nonetheless the intention is valid.
To me this sounds like a practice of self-healing; finding ways to enjoy music despite a very different experience of it than the average human being, however unclear cognitively that may be for the practitioner.
Perhaps (just as an example so don’t take too literally), there might be a higher prevalence of SET / high sensitivity full range usage amongst those on the autistic spectrum.
Someone mentioned Earl Geddes sometimes pops into the forum. Does someone have contact details for him? It would be interesting to hear his or another experts view on the topic.
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There likely have always been individuals who have the traits. As Temple Grandin said, picture a tribe of people and there was a discovery/creation of say, an arrow head. Do you think it was the leader, who was speaking of it, or maybe instead, the quiet guy who is always working on something?
Fascinating area that hits close to home I’m afraid.
Fascinating area that hits close to home I’m afraid.
Everyone has autistic and neurotypical traits, do you give a damn whether your autistic traits exceed the threshold the shrinks agreed to in their latest psychiatric manual?
If you do or if you are just curious, have you tried the autism quotient test?
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